Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 December 2013
17 Dec 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill
It is a mark of the fact that there has been no real division on the substance of the debate that Mr Mason has been harangued by Mr Brown and Mr Gray. We should take considerable comfort from the fact that the Opposition has had so little to disagree with—although Mr Gray made a valiant attempt at making himself disagreeable—that we have managed to reach a substantive amount of agreement on the bill.
Let me deal with a number of the points that have been raised in the debate. In his argument for fiscal devolution, Mr Chisholm made an important point about the block grant adjustment mechanism. Mr Chisholm’s argument—if I can paraphrase it—was that, when there is fiscal devolution, we should be the beneficiaries of or responsible for any of the consequences of those fiscal decisions. I agree completely with that analysis.
When we come to the arrangements around the block grant adjustment, the principle that Mr Chisholm enunciated is important. When we have fiscal responsibilities under the settlement, we should be able, as the Administration, to retain the proceeds of those decisions as part of that block grant adjustment mechanism. That is certainly my view and it is one that I will take into discussions on the block grant adjustment.
Mr Gray, in one of his fairer remarks in the debate, made it clear that I cannot unilaterally decide the block grant adjustment mechanism—not yet anyway.
Mr Brown thought that there would be benefit in further explanation of our forecast. I have already made it clear to Parliament that the Scottish Government will establish an independent forecasting organisation to assist us in tax planning in Scotland. We need to do that to reflect the particular requirements of Scotland.
As Mr Brown will know, in its first attempt at a forecast of landfill tax for 2014-15, the OBR predicted that it would generate £145 million—a number that I found literally inexplicable. That has subsequently been revised down to £99 million, which is a reduction of 32 per cent. A variability in tax prediction by the OBR of 32 per cent is quite an alarming figure. That is why we will proceed with that aspect of our plans in due course.
Let me deal with a number of the points that have been raised in the debate. In his argument for fiscal devolution, Mr Chisholm made an important point about the block grant adjustment mechanism. Mr Chisholm’s argument—if I can paraphrase it—was that, when there is fiscal devolution, we should be the beneficiaries of or responsible for any of the consequences of those fiscal decisions. I agree completely with that analysis.
When we come to the arrangements around the block grant adjustment, the principle that Mr Chisholm enunciated is important. When we have fiscal responsibilities under the settlement, we should be able, as the Administration, to retain the proceeds of those decisions as part of that block grant adjustment mechanism. That is certainly my view and it is one that I will take into discussions on the block grant adjustment.
Mr Gray, in one of his fairer remarks in the debate, made it clear that I cannot unilaterally decide the block grant adjustment mechanism—not yet anyway.
Mr Brown thought that there would be benefit in further explanation of our forecast. I have already made it clear to Parliament that the Scottish Government will establish an independent forecasting organisation to assist us in tax planning in Scotland. We need to do that to reflect the particular requirements of Scotland.
As Mr Brown will know, in its first attempt at a forecast of landfill tax for 2014-15, the OBR predicted that it would generate £145 million—a number that I found literally inexplicable. That has subsequently been revised down to £99 million, which is a reduction of 32 per cent. A variability in tax prediction by the OBR of 32 per cent is quite an alarming figure. That is why we will proceed with that aspect of our plans in due course.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08609, in the name of John Swinney, on the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill. I invite members who wish to spe...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the fact that we have reached the stage 3 debate on the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill, which is the second bill establishing devolved taxes in Scotl...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
I put on record my thanks to the Government for the way in which it has engaged with me on a matter concerning my constituents in Blanefield. We are grateful...
John Swinney
SNP
I welcome Mr Crawford’s comments. He has advanced the interests of his constituents in the Blanefield area using all means available to him through the legis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
There is no time in hand. I call Iain Gray. You have a maximum of seven minutes, but I would like you to take less than that if possible.15:26
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
In the stage 1 debate, I referred to the landfill tax as a new tax. In his closing speech in that debate, the cabinet secretary corrected me—it is, of course...
The Minister for Environment and Climate Change (Paul Wheelhouse)
SNP
Would the member accept that even in the worst-case scenario that is set out in “Low Carbon Scotland: Meeting our Emissions Reduction Targets 2013-2027. The ...
Iain Gray
Lab
I think that the minister has more confidence in RPP2 than I do, but let us see what happens as time unfolds.That said, on diversion from landfill and increa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I now call Gavin Brown, who has five minutes or less.15:33
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I think that the bill commands broad support across the chamber. It was a pretty good bill at stage 1 and it has been strengthened marginally during the stag...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are in your final minute.
Gavin Brown
Con
However, it is worth while to think more carefully about the ultimate policy objective of that. Is it simply to tax the same level of investigations as we cu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I am afraid that you must close.
Gavin Brown
Con
It is worth while to reflect on that. We will certainly support the bill this evening.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We turn to the open debate. I am afraid that I can only give speeches of three minutes to four members. I apologise to the fifth member, whom I will not be a...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
It is always good to welcome a new tax, although I take the point that the landfill tax is, in fact, a replacement tax and that it is probable that many peop...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
Lab
Like the land and buildings transaction tax, the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill has been very technical, but it has had a remarkably straightforward and consen...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
As convener of the lead committee, I first thank the clerks, officials and witnesses who helped the Finance Committee in its deliberations as the bill progre...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
An important argument in favour of increasing levels of fiscal devolution is that it can incentivise economic activity that brings more revenues to this Parl...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I apologise to Jean Urquhart, whom I have been unable to call. Gavin Brown, you can have a maximum of four minutes.15:51
Gavin Brown
Con
This has been a pretty good, if short, debate, which did not differ enormously from the debate at stage 1. That reflects the fact that very little has change...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I call Iain Gray. I apologise that I can give you only five minutes.15:55
Iain Gray
Lab
This has been a short but interesting debate. It has also been a bit of a Donald Rumsfeld debate because a lot of known unknowns have been discussed. We do n...
John Mason
SNP
I wonder whether the member will accept my main point, which was that we can put more faith in John Swinney than we can in George Osborne.
Iain Gray
Lab
The degree to which we have to put faith in Mr Swinney is exactly the point to which I am coming. I thought that Mr Mason was rising to apologise to the cabi...
John Swinney
SNP
It is a mark of the fact that there has been no real division on the substance of the debate that Mr Mason has been harangued by Mr Brown and Mr Gray. We sho...
Gavin Brown
Con
Does the cabinet secretary accept that one reason for having a three-year lead time was so that we could look at the twice-yearly estimates until a position ...
John Swinney
SNP
It is a lot more stable now because the original estimate was complete baloney. If the member goes back to the December 2012 forecast, he will see that liter...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I wonder whether that would encourage us to take other OBR forecasts, for instance for oil and gas revenues, with a very large pinch of salt.
John Swinney
SNP
We have to take care on a lot of those issues. Mr MacKenzie knows that the Scottish Government has a different view from the OBR on oil and gas predictions. ...