Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 07 November 2013
07 Nov 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunals (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and I declare my interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.
As members are aware, the UK Government has announced that reserved tribunals will not be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, for the foreseeable future. That is disappointing in that it makes it a little more difficult to achieve the bill’s aims of streamlining the tribunals system in Scotland and making it more efficient. However, that is where we are.
Notwithstanding that, we need to ensure that the legislation will be fit to accommodate reserved tribunals in due course, but as Jonathan Mitchell of the Faculty of Advocates pointed out, without reserved tribunals, we are dealing with about only 2 per cent to 3 per cent of cases that come before tribunals in Scotland—much less if the Lands Tribunal for Scotland or, indeed, the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland were to be excluded.
Much of the bill is technical and to some people—possibly even the convener, who I see has now left—it may appear to be dull, indeed. I accept that repetition may be the order of the day, but there are also a few matters that merit comment.
First, given the volume of mental health work and the fact that 332 of the existing 460 tribunal members who are covered by the bill sit on mental health tribunals, it seems to be sensible that the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland should form a chamber of its own. Indeed, the proposals in relation to mental health were well received, with the exception of the possibility that the unique position of the tribunal as a separate chamber might be temporary. I note the Scottish Government’s response on that issue, but I am not sure that it will fully allay those fears. Further engagement with the sector on the issue might be helpful.
The second issue is whether the president of the tribunals should be a senator of the College of Justice, a judge or someone without such experience. I was not quite as enthusiastic as other members of the committee about opening up the field to others with relevant experience. If we are to move towards an integrated tribunals and courts system, it is inevitable that a judge—whether appointed or assigned—would be in an advantageous position.
The next issue is the absence of a definition of “tribunal” in the bill. Citizens Advice Scotland and others have called for incorporation in the bill of a definition and a statement of overriding objectives, such as that in the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. I note the minister’s comments on that, but I hope that her consideration of the overriding principles will give rise to an amendment at stage 2.
I also welcome the statutory provisions that will place a duty on key individuals, including MSPs, to ensure the independence of tribunals.
As members are aware, the UK Government has announced that reserved tribunals will not be devolved to the Scottish Parliament, for the foreseeable future. That is disappointing in that it makes it a little more difficult to achieve the bill’s aims of streamlining the tribunals system in Scotland and making it more efficient. However, that is where we are.
Notwithstanding that, we need to ensure that the legislation will be fit to accommodate reserved tribunals in due course, but as Jonathan Mitchell of the Faculty of Advocates pointed out, without reserved tribunals, we are dealing with about only 2 per cent to 3 per cent of cases that come before tribunals in Scotland—much less if the Lands Tribunal for Scotland or, indeed, the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland were to be excluded.
Much of the bill is technical and to some people—possibly even the convener, who I see has now left—it may appear to be dull, indeed. I accept that repetition may be the order of the day, but there are also a few matters that merit comment.
First, given the volume of mental health work and the fact that 332 of the existing 460 tribunal members who are covered by the bill sit on mental health tribunals, it seems to be sensible that the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland should form a chamber of its own. Indeed, the proposals in relation to mental health were well received, with the exception of the possibility that the unique position of the tribunal as a separate chamber might be temporary. I note the Scottish Government’s response on that issue, but I am not sure that it will fully allay those fears. Further engagement with the sector on the issue might be helpful.
The second issue is whether the president of the tribunals should be a senator of the College of Justice, a judge or someone without such experience. I was not quite as enthusiastic as other members of the committee about opening up the field to others with relevant experience. If we are to move towards an integrated tribunals and courts system, it is inevitable that a judge—whether appointed or assigned—would be in an advantageous position.
The next issue is the absence of a definition of “tribunal” in the bill. Citizens Advice Scotland and others have called for incorporation in the bill of a definition and a statement of overriding objectives, such as that in the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. I note the minister’s comments on that, but I hope that her consideration of the overriding principles will give rise to an amendment at stage 2.
I also welcome the statutory provisions that will place a duty on key individuals, including MSPs, to ensure the independence of tribunals.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08145, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill.
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)
SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 1 debate on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Justice Committee for its scrutiny of the bill at stage 1 and for th...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
The minister says that there will be an assignment, rather than an appointment. There is public expectation that the post and person specifications will be c...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
We want to ensure that the Lord President’s role is paramount. Members need to keep that in mind. I do not want to get into the business of defining matters ...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I shall say this very slowly: I am amending parts of my speech.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I thought that that might be the case.Members need to keep it in mind that each tribunal was created by an act of Parliament. They are all required to operat...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, minister. If “courtification” is not a word, it should be. I call Christine Grahame to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee—you have 10 minute...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Heavens.It says in my notes, “Welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate”. I think that that might be going a bit too far. I speak on behalf of the Justi...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sure that Mr Stevenson will tell me about an even greater tumbleweed debate.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I wonder whether the member remembers the Court of Session Act 1693—Laughter.. It specifically says that“no person presume to speake after the Lords begin to...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I liked the last bit, but the idea that I was around in 1693 is a bit wounding.By way of introduction, I will take members on a brief journey through the mix...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
It is assignment.
Christine Grahame
SNP
Thank you.The president will be responsible for the efficient disposal of tribunal business. Currently, only a senator of the College of Justice can be assig...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Courtification.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I will need to develop adjectives and adverbs now.We concluded that how legal members of tribunals are referred to was a matter for individual tribunals to d...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, Ms Grahame. It might be helpful to members if I advise that we have a little time in hand. If members take interventions, the Presiding Officers w...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
The Scottish Parliament has, over the years, debated many bills that have attracted significant media and public attention. Bills have given the entitlement ...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I wonder whether it would be helpful to look at the way that the Scottish Parliament information centre has described what a tribunal is. It seems to me that...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I thank the member for his intervention. That was along the lines of some of the suggestions that were made to the committee, and I think that we will be kee...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
As tribunals form an important part of our civil justice system, I welcome the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the general principles of the T...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
I would be delighted.
Margaret Mitchell
Con
According to that committee, a tribunal is“A body which resolves disputes between citizens and state and between private parties by making binding decisions ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. There is a modest amount of time in hand for interventions.15:14
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I am not terribly sure that I am delighted to be speaking here today, but it is my last hurrah as a member of the Justice Committee. There is an element of d...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Mention them again.
Colin Keir
SNP
No—I refuse to mention them again. Ms Grahame should just sit there. She has had her shot.Anyway, use of affirmative procedure will provide some parliamentar...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
Sometimes it takes weeks to hear repetition in the chamber, but when it does we tend to think, “Oh, no! Not that again.” However, we are less than an hour in...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and I declare my interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.As members are aware, the UK Government ha...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Will Roderick Campbell give way?
Roderick Campbell
SNP
I am not sure that I have time, to be honest, but I will give way if the intervention is brief.