Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 25 September 2013
25 Sep 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Children and Young People (Named Persons)
If the minister cares to read much of the evidence on this, she will see that, among the legal community in particular, there are deep-seated concerns, some of which I have read out this afternoon, about interpretation and that the balance is tipping towards the state rather than towards parents and families.
However, there is another concern. All political parties in the chamber rightly worry about how we reach the most vulnerable children and provide additional resources where they are most needed. If, through the named person policy, we are insisting on state intervention for all children, even those in families who do not require any help, we are by definition going to end up spreading resources for our most vulnerable children far too thinly. On 3 September, Mr John Stevenson of Unison told the Education and Culture Committee that the bill
“will bring into the net a whole lot of people who in the past had no connection with agencies at all.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 3 September 2013; c 2698.]
He is right and his view is supported by the wealth of evidence that has been submitted to the Education and Culture Committee and the Finance Committee.
Some tell us that there is nothing to worry about, that the policy is merely a formalisation of what is already happening and that it is just a means of expanding the successful getting it right for every child project in the Highlands. I do not accept that. Indeed, it could be argued that Highland Council’s success—and it is fair to say that its approach has been successful—has come about without legislation and because the authority’s culture of care has allowed the various departments to collaborate so well. If this is just a formalisation of existing practice, why are so many stakeholders, even those who approve of the named person principle, so anxious about its costs and the additional workload?
However, there is another concern. All political parties in the chamber rightly worry about how we reach the most vulnerable children and provide additional resources where they are most needed. If, through the named person policy, we are insisting on state intervention for all children, even those in families who do not require any help, we are by definition going to end up spreading resources for our most vulnerable children far too thinly. On 3 September, Mr John Stevenson of Unison told the Education and Culture Committee that the bill
“will bring into the net a whole lot of people who in the past had no connection with agencies at all.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 3 September 2013; c 2698.]
He is right and his view is supported by the wealth of evidence that has been submitted to the Education and Culture Committee and the Finance Committee.
Some tell us that there is nothing to worry about, that the policy is merely a formalisation of what is already happening and that it is just a means of expanding the successful getting it right for every child project in the Highlands. I do not accept that. Indeed, it could be argued that Highland Council’s success—and it is fair to say that its approach has been successful—has come about without legislation and because the authority’s culture of care has allowed the various departments to collaborate so well. If this is just a formalisation of existing practice, why are so many stakeholders, even those who approve of the named person principle, so anxious about its costs and the additional workload?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-07783, in the name of Liz Smith, on named persons. The debate is oversubscribed and we are extremely tigh...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I do not think that anyone who followed the Daniel Pelka case this summer could be anything other than repulsed by the depths of the depravity that confronte...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
Liz Smith is hugely misrepresenting the intention behind the bill, and I will certainly be making some remarks about our intentions in my opening speech. How...
Liz Smith
Con
If the minister cares to read much of the evidence on this, she will see that, among the legal community in particular, there are deep-seated concerns, some ...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
The member is, like me, a member of the Education and Culture Committee and will know that a consistent theme that has emerged over the past two years in our...
Liz Smith
Con
I do not accept that. The fact is that the approach taken to GIRFEC in the Highlands has been hugely successful and, as many witnesses who have given evidenc...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
The Scottish Government believes that action must be taken to put in place a proportionate system of protection, nurture and support to give all our children...
Liz Smith
Con
Is not it the case that those parents were parents of children who required additional support rather than parents whose families did not have problems?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
I will go on to talk about some more parental input to the process as I make progress in my opening remarks.As the evidence from Highland Council eloquently ...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister say that she needs to do more to convince parents that the idea is good? If she accepts that, how does she plan to do that over the months ...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Absolutely. As the bill progresses through Parliament, we will be able to ensure that our narrative deals with some of the issues that parents raise. As I sa...
Liz Smith
Con
Will the minister give way?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
No.That is why I believe that the named person service should be based in the universal services of health and education. We are not changing what they do; w...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
The context in which I made that observation was in relation to health visitors and the option for authorities to be able to look at families about which con...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Perhaps there is a bit of inconsistency from the Conservatives. Last session, they seemed to agree with all that we are trying to achieve with GIRFEC, but in...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to open this debate for the Scottish Labour Party. We support the principles of getting it right for every child and welcome the mo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Final minute.
Jayne Baxter
Lab
I hope that the Scottish Government will listen to the many constructive suggestions that have been made. What we have in the named person for every child is...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
In turning to the open debate, I am afraid that I have to advise members that the debate is oversubscribed, so we may have to lose a member from it. Speeches...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Unfortunately, I have to begin by expressing my disappointment that we are having this debate at this time, and that the Conservative group has brought to th...
Liz Smith
Con
As was said earlier this afternoon, is it not helpful to have a parliamentary debate to flesh out some of the concerns that have already been raised? We have...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I am sorry, but Liz Smith spent part of her speech criticising specific points in the evidence about particular words and their definitions. It is exactly th...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Oh, come on! Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order, please.
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
However, we are where we are, and on the balance of the evidence that the committee has received thus far, it is clear that there is widespread support for t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I call Ken Macintosh, to be followed by Clare Adamson.16:21
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I find myself in unfamiliar territory. I have always supported the GIRFEC approach to child protection and I continue to back the principles behind getting i...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Ken Macintosh grossly misrepresents what the named person is. There are many times and instances in which the child—like his children and my children—will no...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I have no difficulty accessing my children’s teacher, health visitor or anyone else, and I do not see why they have to be a named person. The approach does n...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I repeat to members that I have no extra time available in this debate; there are no seconds at all.I call Gavin Brown, to be followed by George Adam.16:26