Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 02 May 2013
02 May 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Justice System
This week, I had the good fortune to be briefed by Rob Strachan, the chief officer of Lothian and Borders community justice authority. It is important to state some facts about the general offender cohort in Edinburgh and Midlothian. There are 4,362 offenders. Some 27.9 per cent of offenders are reconvicted within one year. In the Scottish Borders, there are 802 offenders, with a one-year reconviction rate of 26.2 per cent. That is better than the Scottish average, but it gives members an idea of the task in hand.
Males are more likely than females to be reconvicted within two years. The peak age for reconviction for men is under 21. It is estimated that 90 to 95 offenders a month are released from prison and return to communities in Lothian and Borders with substance misuse problems. Breaking that life habit is complex and difficult.
On prolific and persistent offenders, research points to an average of 10 per cent of offenders being responsible for 50 per cent of all crime. It is the same people who commit all those offences. Past behaviour is the most reliable predictor of future behaviour, as demonstrated by the number of previous convictions and reconviction rates. It is estimated that 200 offenders cost the system in Lothian and Borders at least £12.2 million per year. When we consider that we are paying out £97 million a year to CJAs, we can see that a lot of money is going into the system, and it needs to be looked at again.
A different pattern emerges in relation to women offenders. Some 37 per cent of women offenders have attempted suicide. Two thirds of women in prison have a history of abuse. The rate of drug problems among women prisoners in Scotland has been found to be as high as 98 per cent. That group of people has a very different set of complex problems, all of which must be addressed to try to break the habit of reoffending.
Not being terribly au fait with CJAs, I was struck by the fact that the membership is made up of councillors. That seems to be a narrow membership, when CJAs need many skills. I therefore welcome what the cabinet secretary said about people from health services, drug addiction teams and housing services—I see that Jenny Marra is nodding.
The Justice Committee found when we examined purposeful activity in prisons and throughcare that one of the biggest issues for people coming out of prison is having a home to go to. If they do not have a home to go to and an address, they cannot get a general practitioner. As Alison McInnes and I found out when we were in Polmont, that means that, after all the work that is done in prison on breaking the drug and alcohol habits and on rehabilitation, most of these young men come out and have no GP, which means that their medical records stay where they are and the young men go back into the same cycle. I therefore welcome the refresh of the CJAs.
Rob Strachan was clear about the fact that provision is patchy. He knows that there are faults in the system and he is working to address them. For example, he said that he does not have the latest breakdown of the violent offenders profile. I have already raised with the cabinet secretary my view that the MAPPA approach, which has a role to play in the release of sex offenders, should have a role to play in the release of serious violent offenders.
Rob Strachan also said that he does not have the latest breakdown of the women offenders profile. One of the problems with women offenders and young offenders is that they are not in a local prison. People who are in Polmont and Cornton Vale have come from all over Scotland, and people who are released from prisons that are not in their locality face even bigger problems than other prisoners do.
One of the options that I favour—I do not think that it is in the consultation paper, but that is just me being difficult—is a marriage of options A and C. We need national oversight, national guidance and accountability, whether to a board or whatever, as to how the money is being spent. Good practice must also be shared—when something works in one area, we should let it go somewhere else, while never taking away local delivery.
I would like the CJAs to have a much broader membership with responsibility for delivery and to be accountable for what they do to a centralised board or whatever we want to call it. If we address all the other issues that we are raising—such as throughcare, the Scottish Prison Service following what happens to prisoners beyond the prison walls and the fact that, because the NHS now delivers healthcare in prisons, there should be continuity of care when a prisoner leaves—and if we have refreshed CJAs with a broader membership and with real accountability for the money that they spend and how effective they are, we might improve reoffending rates, which are very difficult to bring down, for the reasons that I have touched on.
That is not simple; everyone is individual and different categories face different problems. If we had a central organisation to look at strategies and make CJAs accountable, while CJAs said, “I know what works in this area and I know how we could do this,” we would have the best of both worlds.
I say to the cabinet secretary that I want something between options A and C—A plus C or A and C jammed together in some way, or maybe we could make it option D.
15:36
Males are more likely than females to be reconvicted within two years. The peak age for reconviction for men is under 21. It is estimated that 90 to 95 offenders a month are released from prison and return to communities in Lothian and Borders with substance misuse problems. Breaking that life habit is complex and difficult.
On prolific and persistent offenders, research points to an average of 10 per cent of offenders being responsible for 50 per cent of all crime. It is the same people who commit all those offences. Past behaviour is the most reliable predictor of future behaviour, as demonstrated by the number of previous convictions and reconviction rates. It is estimated that 200 offenders cost the system in Lothian and Borders at least £12.2 million per year. When we consider that we are paying out £97 million a year to CJAs, we can see that a lot of money is going into the system, and it needs to be looked at again.
A different pattern emerges in relation to women offenders. Some 37 per cent of women offenders have attempted suicide. Two thirds of women in prison have a history of abuse. The rate of drug problems among women prisoners in Scotland has been found to be as high as 98 per cent. That group of people has a very different set of complex problems, all of which must be addressed to try to break the habit of reoffending.
Not being terribly au fait with CJAs, I was struck by the fact that the membership is made up of councillors. That seems to be a narrow membership, when CJAs need many skills. I therefore welcome what the cabinet secretary said about people from health services, drug addiction teams and housing services—I see that Jenny Marra is nodding.
The Justice Committee found when we examined purposeful activity in prisons and throughcare that one of the biggest issues for people coming out of prison is having a home to go to. If they do not have a home to go to and an address, they cannot get a general practitioner. As Alison McInnes and I found out when we were in Polmont, that means that, after all the work that is done in prison on breaking the drug and alcohol habits and on rehabilitation, most of these young men come out and have no GP, which means that their medical records stay where they are and the young men go back into the same cycle. I therefore welcome the refresh of the CJAs.
Rob Strachan was clear about the fact that provision is patchy. He knows that there are faults in the system and he is working to address them. For example, he said that he does not have the latest breakdown of the violent offenders profile. I have already raised with the cabinet secretary my view that the MAPPA approach, which has a role to play in the release of sex offenders, should have a role to play in the release of serious violent offenders.
Rob Strachan also said that he does not have the latest breakdown of the women offenders profile. One of the problems with women offenders and young offenders is that they are not in a local prison. People who are in Polmont and Cornton Vale have come from all over Scotland, and people who are released from prisons that are not in their locality face even bigger problems than other prisoners do.
One of the options that I favour—I do not think that it is in the consultation paper, but that is just me being difficult—is a marriage of options A and C. We need national oversight, national guidance and accountability, whether to a board or whatever, as to how the money is being spent. Good practice must also be shared—when something works in one area, we should let it go somewhere else, while never taking away local delivery.
I would like the CJAs to have a much broader membership with responsibility for delivery and to be accountable for what they do to a centralised board or whatever we want to call it. If we address all the other issues that we are raising—such as throughcare, the Scottish Prison Service following what happens to prisoners beyond the prison walls and the fact that, because the NHS now delivers healthcare in prisons, there should be continuity of care when a prisoner leaves—and if we have refreshed CJAs with a broader membership and with real accountability for the money that they spend and how effective they are, we might improve reoffending rates, which are very difficult to bring down, for the reasons that I have touched on.
That is not simple; everyone is individual and different categories face different problems. If we had a central organisation to look at strategies and make CJAs accountable, while CJAs said, “I know what works in this area and I know how we could do this,” we would have the best of both worlds.
I say to the cabinet secretary that I want something between options A and C—A plus C or A and C jammed together in some way, or maybe we could make it option D.
15:36
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06433, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on redesigning the community justice system.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I know that the mood in the chamber is more sombre than usual, given events and the debate that has just taken place, but I am grateful that members have agr...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Can the cabinet secretary clarify whether, if option B was chosen, consideration would be given to the fact that some local authorities that have areas of ve...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Those matters will have to be discussed in detail. The funding formula that we use takes account of the additional pressure that many areas face as a result ...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the cabinet secretary’s closing comments. We will take up his offer of further discussion outwith the forum of parliamentary debate.There is genera...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I think that Lewis Macdonald will be aware that, with the new governor at Polmont prison, there is a new culture and determination that the expression “purpo...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I am grateful for that intervention. I do not doubt for a moment the commitment of many leaders in the Scottish Prison Service to achieving precisely that ch...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I welcome the debate because it gives Parliament the opportunity to examine why the current arrangement for strategic and operational responsibility with reg...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We move to the open debate, with speeches of six minutes. We have a little bit of time in hand for interventions.15:30
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
This week, I had the good fortune to be briefed by Rob Strachan, the chief officer of Lothian and Borders community justice authority. It is important to sta...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
The debate’s timing is rather unfortunate. The consultation principle has always been central to the Parliament, and it would have been better to wait until ...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
It is clear that there is a fair degree of agreement across the chamber this afternoon. I associate myself with many of the comments that other members have ...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I acknowledge the speeches from all members thus far and I associate myself with many of the comments that have been made. I welcome the cabinet secretary’s ...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Does Graeme Pearson agree that the meaningful and purposeful activity that he refers to can be delivered in so-called short-term sentences? Putting people in...
Graeme Pearson
Lab
Yes. When a prisoner is in custody 24/7, there are always avenues for delivery, if there is the will to deliver, the necessary support, the health interventi...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
Recorded crime is at a 37-year low, and the number of first-time offenders is falling. However, around half of the number who receive a short custodial sent...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
We know that the economic and social cost of offending and reoffending is immense, and we pour so many resources into picking up the pieces. Lives are ruined...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
Perhaps I am the only one—I do not know—but I am pleased to speak in the debate. I take on board what everyone has said, but the more we discuss the communit...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Today’s debate seems premature given that the consultation finished only two days ago and we are awaiting the responses and conclusions. However, like other ...
Sandra White
SNP
Perhaps Mary Fee will be able to educate me on the CJAs. She said that various members of CJAs had contacted her. Would she say that the CJAs work differentl...
Mary Fee
Lab
I think that CJAs work in broadly the same manner in different local authorities. I am perhaps fortunate in that I was a local authority member before I came...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Can I tempt Mary Fee with option D?
Mary Fee
Lab
I thank Christine Grahame for her intervention—I will hold my decision on option D for a bit longer, if that is all right.Before the debate, I had the opport...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
It has been highlighted already that the total economic and social cost of reoffending in Scotland is about £3 billion a year. According to the Audit Scotlan...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate and, like Sandra White, I am quite happy to speak on an important subject. It is important to get the structure to deliver community jus...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
We move to closing speeches. I call Annabel Goldie, who has six minutes or thereby.16:36
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I welcome both the Scottish Government’s recent consultation and this afternoon’s debate on redesigning the community justice system. That matters not only b...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I reiterate what other members have said about the timing of today’s debate. Two days after the closure of the consultation is perhaps a little too soon to d...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Did the member not listen when we said quite clearly that the proposal—whether it is A, B or C—would not come into effect until the spring of 2016? Given tha...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Fanciful or not, those are not my words but the words of a leader of a community justice authority, and they are a response to the cabinet secretary’s motion...