Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2013
24 Apr 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Access to Justice
That is very interesting. I am glad that, several days after making his decision, Mr MacAskill is finally getting around to meeting some people from the police.
Let us consider the example of Stonehaven, where the police and the Court Service very sensibly share a building at the heart of the town. Police Scotland told The Press and Journal 10 days ago:
“There is no suggestion that the police office in Stonehaven will be closed or sold.”
However, at the same time, the Court Service told the same newspaper:
“Should Stonehaven Sheriff Court close then SCS will market the court building, any other proposals for the area where the Police is located is entirely a matter for Police Scotland.”
There we have it: Kenny MacAskill decides to close the local court; the closure of the local court results in the closure of the local police station, although nobody bothers to tell the police force; and the closure of the local court and the local police station will reduce local access to justice and have a major impact on the local economy. However, Mr MacAskill does not appear to think that the impact on the local economy is any of his business and he does not appear to talk to the police about the impact of his decisions on their deployment of resources in the towns affected. What is true of Stonehaven is true of town after town across Scotland: the Government decides, and everyone else has to cope with the consequences, intended or otherwise.
Austin Lafferty, president of the Law Society of Scotland, said last week that he was “disappointed and concerned” by Mr MacAskill’s decision to press on and close every single court on the list. He said on Friday:
“Local courts are an integral part of communities across Scotland ... we don’t believe closures on this scale are compatible with the commitment the government has expressed on widening access to justice ... this closure programme will fail to achieve significant financial savings in the long term ... Even with the introduction of video conference links, it’s likely that some of the remaining courts, which are already at capacity, will struggle with the level of additional business, which in turn could slow down proceedings and increase costs.”
The Law Society’s view is reflected in submission after submission to the Court Service consultation, as other members will no doubt spell out this afternoon.
Douglas Cusine, a retired sheriff in the north-east, said that
“there must be a serious doubt”
about the claim that the sheriff court in Aberdeen could accommodate the staff and the business displaced by the proposed closure of Stonehaven, given the cramped conditions in Aberdeen already. David Hingston, former procurator fiscal and local solicitor, described the proposal to close Dingwall sheriff court as “moronic”, because it failed to take account of the position at Inverness. He said:
“All too frequently, trials in Inverness are put off because of a lack of time to hear them on the date fixed”.
In his view, adding the Dingwall case load will mean that the current delay of three months for trials could double, and he said:
“Justice delayed is justice denied.”
Mr Cusine and Mr Hingston are powerful witnesses. It is because of the consequences that they describe that public opinion is so much against Mr MacAskill’s plans—of course, that includes many in Mr MacAskill’s own party.
I enjoyed undertaking a television debate only a few minutes ago with Christine Grahame, who told the Peeblesshire News earlier this month, as she told the BBC a moment ago, that she would “continue to oppose closure” of Peebles sheriff court. She urged people to write to her as convener of the Justice Committee and said:
“I know that many of those on this committee are unhappy about some of the proposals.”
Let us consider the example of Stonehaven, where the police and the Court Service very sensibly share a building at the heart of the town. Police Scotland told The Press and Journal 10 days ago:
“There is no suggestion that the police office in Stonehaven will be closed or sold.”
However, at the same time, the Court Service told the same newspaper:
“Should Stonehaven Sheriff Court close then SCS will market the court building, any other proposals for the area where the Police is located is entirely a matter for Police Scotland.”
There we have it: Kenny MacAskill decides to close the local court; the closure of the local court results in the closure of the local police station, although nobody bothers to tell the police force; and the closure of the local court and the local police station will reduce local access to justice and have a major impact on the local economy. However, Mr MacAskill does not appear to think that the impact on the local economy is any of his business and he does not appear to talk to the police about the impact of his decisions on their deployment of resources in the towns affected. What is true of Stonehaven is true of town after town across Scotland: the Government decides, and everyone else has to cope with the consequences, intended or otherwise.
Austin Lafferty, president of the Law Society of Scotland, said last week that he was “disappointed and concerned” by Mr MacAskill’s decision to press on and close every single court on the list. He said on Friday:
“Local courts are an integral part of communities across Scotland ... we don’t believe closures on this scale are compatible with the commitment the government has expressed on widening access to justice ... this closure programme will fail to achieve significant financial savings in the long term ... Even with the introduction of video conference links, it’s likely that some of the remaining courts, which are already at capacity, will struggle with the level of additional business, which in turn could slow down proceedings and increase costs.”
The Law Society’s view is reflected in submission after submission to the Court Service consultation, as other members will no doubt spell out this afternoon.
Douglas Cusine, a retired sheriff in the north-east, said that
“there must be a serious doubt”
about the claim that the sheriff court in Aberdeen could accommodate the staff and the business displaced by the proposed closure of Stonehaven, given the cramped conditions in Aberdeen already. David Hingston, former procurator fiscal and local solicitor, described the proposal to close Dingwall sheriff court as “moronic”, because it failed to take account of the position at Inverness. He said:
“All too frequently, trials in Inverness are put off because of a lack of time to hear them on the date fixed”.
In his view, adding the Dingwall case load will mean that the current delay of three months for trials could double, and he said:
“Justice delayed is justice denied.”
Mr Cusine and Mr Hingston are powerful witnesses. It is because of the consequences that they describe that public opinion is so much against Mr MacAskill’s plans—of course, that includes many in Mr MacAskill’s own party.
I enjoyed undertaking a television debate only a few minutes ago with Christine Grahame, who told the Peeblesshire News earlier this month, as she told the BBC a moment ago, that she would “continue to oppose closure” of Peebles sheriff court. She urged people to write to her as convener of the Justice Committee and said:
“I know that many of those on this committee are unhappy about some of the proposals.”
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06306, in the name of Lewis Macdonald, on access to justice. I invite members who wish to speak in the de...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
We have brought this debate to the chamber today to allow all members to have a say in the closures and cuts in function of Scotland’s courts—closures and cu...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
Can the member say what businesses were lost in the town of Linlithgow when the court in Linlithgow was closed and moved to Livingston?
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
As Mr MacAskill is a native of Linlithgow and I am not, I am sure that members will recognise that that was an entirely rhetorical question. The chairman of ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I suggest that Mr Macdonald and Mr MacAskill speak to the traders in Linlithgow to see whether the removal of the court from there was a good move.
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
That sounds like an excellent idea. I am sure that if Mr MacAskill does not manage to do that, Mr Findlay will.The economic impact is reason enough to have t...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
It might surprise the member to know that I met both the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents and the Scottish Police Federation today. Chief Super...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
That is very interesting. I am glad that, several days after making his decision, Mr MacAskill is finally getting around to meeting some people from the poli...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
The member kindly quoted me, but I went on to say that, if I could not get that proposal resisted, I would certainly campaign to ensure that there is a justi...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Absolutely—that is indeed what Christine Grahame said.Roddy Campbell, who is sitting beside Christine Grahame, has expressed equal concerns about the impact ...
Dave Thompson (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
SNP
The member quotes me correctly, but he will obviously realise that there are difficulties with the Scottish Government’s budget. If he wants no changes whats...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I am sure that Mr Thompson was listening when I pointed out that the cabinet secretary wilfully allowed £24 million of police funding to be liable for paymen...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I make the point that some key participants were not here for the start of the debate. It is particularly important that...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to respond to Lewis Macdonald and the Labour motion. First, let us be clear about responsibilities. The Scottish Court Service is a...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I hear what the cabinet secretary is saying when he says that the proposals are not his and that he made a decision on the proposals between Tuesday and Thur...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
As Lewis Macdonald knows, I answered a topical question on an urgent matter from John Lamont, who was looking for my position. I indicated that I would be ma...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Some of the reforms will mean an increase in business for sheriff courts, such as personal injury cases coming down from the Court of Session to the sheriff ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
No, I do not believe so. Those matters have been factored in quite appropriately by the Scottish Court Service. If Ms Marra has concerns, I suggest that she ...
Alex Fergusson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Con
Given the geographic conditions, there are significant differences between the court closures south of the border and those in Scotland in terms of the dista...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
The residents of Alnwick, Penrith and Whitehaven might not take the same view as Mr Fergusson regarding their geography and central location. Those are chall...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I congratulate the Labour Party on bringing the debate to the chamber today, following the Scottish Government’s decision to cut the Scottish Court Service’s...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Does the member have an alternative suggestion for where the money should come from? Should it come from the health budget?
Margaret Mitchell
Con
There has been a cash-terms increase in the Scottish budget. It is for the Scottish Government to set priorities, but the closures that we are discussing rep...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I acknowledge the speeches by Lewis Macdonald and Margaret Mitchell. I take on board the concerns that they have raised and, as a member of the Justice Commi...
Hanzala Malik (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
How does Sandra White square the fact that members of her party make it clear that they oppose some of the cuts with the fact that, when it comes to decision...
Sandra White
SNP
When we look at the results of the elections, it seems that the people of Scotland trust the Scottish National Party, rather than the Labour Party. We need n...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
Sandra White is in her last minute.
Sandra White
SNP
In a recent interview, Lewis Macdonald’s colleague Jenny Marra also failed to provide clarity on the Labour Party’s proposals. She acknowledged that there we...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
More than a year ago, I said that a hit list of court closures was being prepared and that my local court in Haddington was on it. The Cabinet Secretary for ...