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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2013

24 Apr 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Access to Justice
Macdonald, Lewis Lab North East Scotland Watch on SPTV
We have brought this debate to the chamber today to allow all members to have a say in the closures and cuts in function of Scotland’s courts—closures and cuts that were fully and formally supported by Kenny MacAskill on behalf of the Scottish Government last Friday morning.

The proposals will, of course, be subject to scrutiny by the Justice Committee, but that procedure will allow MSPs to express a collective view only if the committee votes to reject the statutory instruments in question. Today, members have the opportunity to stand up and be counted, and to tell ministers what they think of Mr MacAskill’s cuts and closures plan, whether or not they have a vote on the Justice Committee.

The Scottish Government has made no secret of the fact that the plans are about reducing the budget of Scotland’s courts, regardless of the delays and inefficiencies from which many of them already suffer. Two weeks ago, the chief executive of the Scottish Court Service said:

“By 2015 the court service running cost budget will reduce by 20% in real terms and the capital budget will reduce from £20m to £4m.”

The secretary of the Scottish courts branch of the Public and Commercial Services Union, Brian Carroll, made the same point. He said:

“these proposals are about fitting the delivery of justice into a reduced budget and nothing to do with modernisation or with the proposed justice reforms that are under consultation presently.”

Kenny MacAskill has not denied that money is at the root of the proposals, but his amendment seeks—predictably, I suppose—to place all the blame for the cuts on Westminster. He is, of course, the same Cabinet Secretary for Justice who failed last year to avoid the single Scottish police and fire services becoming liable to pay VAT, at a cost to those services of well over £20 million a year. The police and fire services cannot afford those cuts, as hundreds of police staff who fear for their future can testify. For Kenny MacAskill to say that he can afford to take a £24 million hit to the police but cannot avoid cuts of £1 million a year to Scotland’s courts simply lacks credibility. They are his cuts and closures, and to pretend that somebody else is responsible for his decisions is an insult to all those who stand to lose access to local justice.

If members are unsure about the cabinet secretary’s personal responsibility for the decisions, they have only to consider the timetable. Reports of possible closures first emerged in December 2011. The Scottish Court Service invited service users to take part in dialogue events in May 2012. The consultation on proposed closures was launched last September, and conclusions and final recommendations were published on Tuesday 9 April, which was barely two weeks ago. In other words, the Scottish Court Service took well over a year from first consideration to get to final conclusions. It no doubt recognised the seriousness of what was proposed. That is not so for the Cabinet Secretary for Justice. He did not need to think too much about the cuts and closures over which the Scottish Court Service had taken so much time because, in truth, they are his cuts, not the Scottish Court Service’s cuts.

Let us consider just one issue: the impact of the closure proposals on the local economies of the towns in question. That issue was raised by, for example, Andy Willox of the Federation of Small Businesses. The FSB very fairly acknowledged that wider economic impact was not a primary responsibility of the Scottish Court Service but rather a primary responsibility of the Scottish Government. It noted that Nicola Sturgeon had launched the town centre review on behalf of the Scottish Government by saying:

“We want to take every measure possible to ensure our high streets are vibrant places where local people want to spend their time and money.”

Indeed, many Scottish National Party members have signed up to oppose the closure of Crown post offices in today’s members’ business debate for that very reason. Many have also signed up to oppose the closure of their local courts.

Last week, I asked Kenny MacAskill whether he would

“take into account ... the impact of court closures ... on the local economy of county towns”

before he reached any final decisions. He said:

“Yes. Those are matters that I will discuss with Cabinet colleagues.”—[Official Report, 16 April 2013; c 18535.]

That was on Tuesday last week. He announced his decision on Friday. That must have been some discussion. Perhaps Kenny MacAskill will tell us whether he has formally met the Deputy First Minister and other Cabinet colleagues since he made that commitment in Parliament last Tuesday afternoon. Perhaps he will tell us what consideration of the wider policy context there was between Tuesday and Friday last week, as urged by the FSB. On Friday, the FSB said:

“Anyone with an interest in the economic wellbeing of Scotland’s towns will question the Justice Secretary’s decision”.

It said that that decision should be revisited.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06306, in the name of Lewis Macdonald, on access to justice. I invite members who wish to speak in the de...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
We have brought this debate to the chamber today to allow all members to have a say in the closures and cuts in function of Scotland’s courts—closures and cu...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
Can the member say what businesses were lost in the town of Linlithgow when the court in Linlithgow was closed and moved to Livingston?
Lewis Macdonald Lab
As Mr MacAskill is a native of Linlithgow and I am not, I am sure that members will recognise that that was an entirely rhetorical question. The chairman of ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I suggest that Mr Macdonald and Mr MacAskill speak to the traders in Linlithgow to see whether the removal of the court from there was a good move.
Lewis Macdonald Lab
That sounds like an excellent idea. I am sure that if Mr MacAskill does not manage to do that, Mr Findlay will.The economic impact is reason enough to have t...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
It might surprise the member to know that I met both the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents and the Scottish Police Federation today. Chief Super...
Lewis Macdonald Lab
That is very interesting. I am glad that, several days after making his decision, Mr MacAskill is finally getting around to meeting some people from the poli...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The member kindly quoted me, but I went on to say that, if I could not get that proposal resisted, I would certainly campaign to ensure that there is a justi...
Lewis Macdonald Lab
Absolutely—that is indeed what Christine Grahame said.Roddy Campbell, who is sitting beside Christine Grahame, has expressed equal concerns about the impact ...
Dave Thompson (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
The member quotes me correctly, but he will obviously realise that there are difficulties with the Scottish Government’s budget. If he wants no changes whats...
Lewis Macdonald Lab
I am sure that Mr Thompson was listening when I pointed out that the cabinet secretary wilfully allowed £24 million of police funding to be liable for paymen...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I make the point that some key participants were not here for the start of the debate. It is particularly important that...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to respond to Lewis Macdonald and the Labour motion. First, let us be clear about responsibilities. The Scottish Court Service is a...
Lewis Macdonald Lab
I hear what the cabinet secretary is saying when he says that the proposals are not his and that he made a decision on the proposals between Tuesday and Thur...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
As Lewis Macdonald knows, I answered a topical question on an urgent matter from John Lamont, who was looking for my position. I indicated that I would be ma...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Some of the reforms will mean an increase in business for sheriff courts, such as personal injury cases coming down from the Court of Session to the sheriff ...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
No, I do not believe so. Those matters have been factored in quite appropriately by the Scottish Court Service. If Ms Marra has concerns, I suggest that she ...
Alex Fergusson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
Given the geographic conditions, there are significant differences between the court closures south of the border and those in Scotland in terms of the dista...
Kenny MacAskill SNP
The residents of Alnwick, Penrith and Whitehaven might not take the same view as Mr Fergusson regarding their geography and central location. Those are chall...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I congratulate the Labour Party on bringing the debate to the chamber today, following the Scottish Government’s decision to cut the Scottish Court Service’s...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Does the member have an alternative suggestion for where the money should come from? Should it come from the health budget?
Margaret Mitchell Con
There has been a cash-terms increase in the Scottish budget. It is for the Scottish Government to set priorities, but the closures that we are discussing rep...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I acknowledge the speeches by Lewis Macdonald and Margaret Mitchell. I take on board the concerns that they have raised and, as a member of the Justice Commi...
Hanzala Malik (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
How does Sandra White square the fact that members of her party make it clear that they oppose some of the cuts with the fact that, when it comes to decision...
Sandra White SNP
When we look at the results of the elections, it seems that the people of Scotland trust the Scottish National Party, rather than the Labour Party. We need n...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
Sandra White is in her last minute.
Sandra White SNP
In a recent interview, Lewis Macdonald’s colleague Jenny Marra also failed to provide clarity on the Labour Party’s proposals. She acknowledged that there we...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
More than a year ago, I said that a hit list of court closures was being prepared and that my local court in Haddington was on it. The Cabinet Secretary for ...