Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
13
Parties on record
2,355,091
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Clear
Showing 0 of 2,355,091 contributions in session S6, 16 Apr 2026 – 16 May 2026. Latest 30 days: 148. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 14 May 2026.

No contributions match those filters.

← Back to list
Committee

Finance Committee 24 April 2013

24 Apr 2013 · S4 · Finance Committee
Item of business
Scotland Act 2012
Professor David Ulph (University of St Andrews) Watch on SPTV
A number of the issues that I will raise are covered in the submissions provided by Drew Scott, John McLaren and Ken Gibb, as well as to some extent in the paper from David Bell.In my opening remarks, I will talk about three sets of issues. The first, fairly trivial point is that one implication of the 2012 act is that, across a range of policies in the future, people will need to start to think about not just their policies’ implications for the conventional objectives of Government policy—growth, fairness, sustainability and so on—but their policies’ effect, whether beneficial or harmful, on the income tax base and on the amount of revenue that is available in Scotland to spend on various projects. Essentially, in contemplating any kind of policy change, people will need to ask the additional question whether the policy is likely to have an impact on the income tax base and, if so, whether that will be positive or negative.One challenge will be whether we have the expertise and knowledge to try to understand what those effects will be. We have already had some discussion of that in considering Jeremy Peat’s question on whether migration policy should be looked at more actively as a policy that might have an impact on the income tax base. The point might be fairly trivial but, across a range of policies, we will see a systematic shift towards policies that promote the income tax base. Some policies that might otherwise have been accepted will be rejected in favour of policies that favour rather than lower the tax base.A second set of questions, which were covered mostly in Drew Scott’s paper, concerns the fact that the 2012 act will expose Scotland to a series of tax risks to which it is not currently exposed. Those risks will arise through the forecasting of tax revenue but also through the variability in the tax base in Scotland vis-à-vis the rest of the UK.I should say that, in my remarks, I use the term “tax base” in a slightly different sense from that which David Bell used. By the tax base, I mean the total amount of taxable revenue that is available in Scotland on which income tax can be levied. The tax base is therefore the product of the number of people who have income above the tax threshold and of the amount of income that they have above that tax threshold—it is not just a head count.One big question that Scotland will need to face, which I will spend a little time thinking about, is whether to set the Scottish rate of income tax at 10p, which would basically restore the position to the basic rate of income tax; whether to raise it to 12p, as David Bell suggested; or whether to go below 10p by cutting the rate to, say, 8p. In other words, do we make the overall rate of income tax in Scotland higher than 20p in the pound or lower than 20p in the pound? We will need to think about a number of factors in making that decision.One of the key questions that we might want to think about is how changing the tax rate would affect the amount of tax revenue available in Scotland for spending on various projects. As economists, we think about that question quite a lot. Normally, we think about how changing the tax rate has two different effects on tax revenue. First, for a given size of tax base, if we have a higher rate of tax on that tax base, we generate more tax revenue. The second effect that we think about is that raising the tax rate might affect the size of the tax base. On the whole, we tend to think that, the higher the tax rate, the lower will be the tax base, because work and other types of enterprise will be discouraged. The overall effect on tax revenue—whether it goes up or down—depends on the balance of those two effects.The essential question that we need to consider is, even if we assume that tax revenue goes up when we raise the tax rate and down when we lower the tax rate, how sharply or moderately does tax revenue go up? Conversely, if we cut the rate of tax, how sharply or moderately does tax revenue fall? Other things being equal, if the impact of the tax rate on tax revenue is more moderate—that is, if an increase in the tax rate would produce only a small impact on tax revenue—we will tend to want to cut tax rates. On the other hand, other things being equal, the more sharply tax revenue goes up when we raise the tax rate, the more we will be inclined to raise the tax rate. The question is how sharp or how moderate the effect of a change in the tax rate would be on tax revenue. Economists have spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to measure that.In the specific context of the 2012 act, two factors arise that make the answer to that question different from that which we normally face in economics. One factor is that the tax base is shared between Scotland and the rest of the UK. That implies that, if we raise the income tax rate, we will get all the benefits of the higher income tax rate but suffer only some of the consequences of the reduction in the tax base, because some of that will be picked up by England or the rest of the UK.On the other hand, if we cut the tax rate, we will suffer all the loss of tax revenue but get only some of the gains from the higher tax base, because some of that revenue will accrue to the rest of the UK—to HM Treasury. If that factor was at work, it would suggest quite a sharp response in tax revenue to the tax rate. Other things being equal, that would imply that we would want to raise tax—that would be a factor in arguing for pushing above the 10p rate.A second effect that is at work is that, if Scotland set a different tax rate from the 10p rate, that would mean that the overall basic rate of income tax in Scotland was different from that in the rest of the UK. The question is: what effect would that have on the tax base in Scotland?We might think that, if Scotland set a lower basic rate of income tax than that in the rest of the UK, that could have a positive effect on the tax base in Scotland because, other things being equal, economic activity that might otherwise have taken place in the rest of the UK might transfer to Scotland. On the other hand, if Scotland raised the tax rate above 10p, activity that could have taken place in Scotland might be displaced to England. That effect would suggest that tax revenue will move rather shallowly in response to changes in the tax rate, which would tend to make us want to lower the rate of income tax in Scotland.Those two effects work in different directions. The shared tax base would tend to make us want to raise the rate of income tax above 10p. Other things being equal, if having a different tax rate from the rest of the UK generated more economic activity in Scotland, we might want to cut the tax rate.As David Bell said in his evidence, we know very little about that second effect—how responsive the tax base would be to the possibility of the tax rate in Scotland being different from that in the rest of the UK. However, that could be a really important issue to understand.11:45 There are another couple of effects of having a different tax rate in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. It is important to think about the possibility that, if Scotland had a different tax rate from the rest of the UK, that could open up scope for tax avoidance. Tax avoidance tends to operate when economic activities are taxed at different rates in different locations. That gives rise to all sorts of opportunities for people to find artificial means of channelling their income through different countries to exploit the lower tax rate in one country vis-à-vis another. Whether the tax rate was higher or lower in Scotland, those opportunities for tax avoidance could arise and affect the size of the tax base.I am not suggesting that that is an enormous factor that should make us cautious about setting a different rate in Scotland from the rest of the UK, but tax avoidance is driven not only by the behaviour of taxpayers but by the fact that tax systems set different tax rates on essentially the same activity in different places or on different individuals. Individuals and companies will exploit those opportunities whenever they see them arising.

In the same item of business

The Convener SNP
The second item of business is to take evidence on the implications of the financial powers arising from the Scotland Act 2012. I welcome to the meeting Prof...
Professor Gerald Holtham (Independent Commission on Funding and Finance for Wales)
In my remarks, I will focus on one part of the brief paper that I submitted, on the treatment of deductions from the block grant once tax powers have been de...
The Convener SNP
Thank you very much, Professor Holtham. Those comments and indeed your briefing paper have been very helpful. I will ask a couple of questions to start with ...
Professor Holtham
You will have to excuse me, convener, because I do not think that I am completely up to date with the debate. I know that the original suggestion was to base...
The Convener SNP
Is one of the benefits of the indexed method that it should encourage the Scottish Government to prioritise economic growth?
Professor Holtham
Yes, I think so. With the indexed method, you retain any benefits from the growth of your own tax base relative to the UK tax base.
The Convener SNP
The Scottish and UK Governments will have to plan to reduce any potential uncertainties. Is it not the case that most of the risk falls at the Scottish end?
Professor Holtham
Which risk are you referring to?
The Convener SNP
Well, the risk from getting the figures in these predictions wrong, certainly in relative terms. Do you accept that?
Professor Holtham
As I have said, the tendency in forecasting is to flatten reality. People do not forecast recessions very much. Guys in the private sector might want to make...
The Convener SNP
Could anything more be done to minimise that risk either way? After all, what many people are looking for is stable revenues.09:45
Professor Holtham
It is good that there is something such as the OBR, which is at least notionally one step removed from the Treasury. A difficulty historically has been that ...
The Convener SNP
Yes.On the taxes that have been devolved here, we have talked specifically about the Scottish rate of income tax. Last week, the OBR made it clear that it do...
Professor Holtham
I understand that. The ability to make forecasts on those small taxes is probably quite limited, so you are well within your rights to ask for some investmen...
The Convener SNP
I will now widen out the discussion to involve colleagues round the table.
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
That was a really helpful introduction by Professor Holtham. I think that there is a degree of consensus on the distinction between the smaller taxes, which ...
Professor Holtham
Yes, that is right. If what has been said is right and the OBR is not too hot at forecasting, it will simply be taking history and assuming that what has hap...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
I was not very reassured when you said that the OBR tends not to forecast recessions—in other words, it looks on the bright side of things. I presume that, t...
Professor Holtham
Yes. I suppose that that is right. The process is symmetrical, of course. The OBR tends to underestimate changes on both sides, but if it underestimates a re...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
I think that we are getting them, so I hope that those one-off deductions will not be such a problem. However, income tax is the big one, and I am really int...
Professor Holtham
In practice, assuming that you did not change the rate, the UK Government would make an estimate of what the revenue was worth—the 7.4 per cent, if you like—...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Initially, we will get just the 10p rate. Would the calculation be done on the basis of the growth of just that part of UK income tax or the growth of all UK...
Professor Holtham
This is one thing that we do not like in Wales, but the 10p rate is applied across the income tax range. It applies to people who are right at the threshold ...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Could there be a problem if income tax grows more strongly in England or Scotland not because of Government interventions, but for reasons that are not reall...
Professor Holtham
Yes, indeed. That is a risk that you are taking on. To be honest, I have not thought of a clever way to protect you against extraneous risks while leaving yo...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
How possible would it be in practice to separate extraneous factors from factors that are related to Government actions?
Professor Holtham
It would not be possible. After 15 years, even the Government actions would be offset, but you would be starting from that base—you would not be going back a...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
Looking back over the past 15 years, do you think that there are some extraneous factors that would explain the percentage of income tax being greater or sma...
Professor Holtham
Scotland has done fairly well over the past 15 years—the economy has not done badly at all. Of course, it is presumably very dependent on the oil price. The ...
Jean Urquhart (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
I have one observation to make. It seems, from reading the paper and listening to the OBR presentation—which was not very reassuring in terms of differential...