Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 06 December 2012
06 Dec 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Careers Services
Last month, the importance of careers guidance was put into sharp focus for the cross-party group on colleges and universities. Bill Porterfield of Burn Stewart Distillers, who was providing a report about the ambitions that he and some other local businesses have for helping young people into successful careers, began his contribution with the following observation:
“When exam time comes, the education system tells you to put away your calculators, your mobiles and your textbooks, and try to remember everything you have learnt for the last two years for a two hour exam. Don’t copy anyone … and don’t ask anyone for help. This must be all your own work”.
What happens on day 1 in the workplace? You are handed a calculator, a mobile and a set of instructions. You are told not to rely on anything that you have learned up till now and, whatever you do, to ask for help. It is the absolute opposite of the academic experience that finished only a few weeks before.
That is a bit of satire, perhaps, but it nonetheless serves to set out the culture shock that many young people face when they enter the world of work. At stake is somebody’s future career and their ability to know what to expect, understand the appropriate ethos, take instruction and know their rights and responsibilities. In short, it is as much about having good communication skills and how the person adds value to the workplace as it is about their qualifications.
The earliest discussions in a pupil’s school life about possible career paths can have the most significant impact. They by no means determine exactly what the pupil will do post school, but they certainly sow the seeds for possible paths.
It is, therefore, vital that those initial discussions are well informed and properly followed up, rather than involving mandatory chats from a teacher to the whole class or in some cases the whole year group. In the past, and even at a few schools today, the latter approach has been all too familiar and has done little more than advise pupils which prospectuses to read or which websites to use.
If the philosophy of earliest identification is true in looking after the social and educational needs of our youngest children, it is also true for careers guidance. In my book, that means starting out with better careers guidance in the early years of secondary school, prior to subject choice for external qualifications.
I would argue strongly that effective guidance is needed on why there are different approaches to the disciplines of science, arts and social sciences. Members may be surprised to learn that although pupils often know which subjects fall into those categories, they are not always aware of how one learns in the different disciplines. Knowledge must be complemented by an early understanding of the world of work and the skills that are required in any occupation.
We should be clear about schools’ obligations. First, there is—not least because of the principles that underpin the curriculum for excellence document “Building the Curriculum 4”—an obligation to ensure that the guidance that is provided at school is personal and no longer shaped by a-one-size-fits-all approach. Such an approach may be fine for the initial session, but it is certainly not appropriate as pupils begin to discuss their individual programmes.
I commend those schools throughout Scotland that take time to interview their pupils on a regular one-to-one basis and which, in the later years of school, ask pupils to select one member of the school staff to act as a personal tutor. The fact that the pupil has a choice has the huge advantage of ensuring that the system has a high chance of success and that the pupil sees that member of staff on a regular basis.
Secondly, schools have an obligation to ensure that they fully involve parents in the process, given that parents remain the biggest influence on young people’s choices in the early stages. It makes things much better if school and home are working together, and it is beneficial when local businesses or recruitment agencies can be involved too. As was said at the cross-party group, it is never too early to start work on what expectations are in the workplace and which skills are required in any professional working environment.
School are also obliged to ensure that they track pupils once they have left school so that they become much better informed about how well the careers guidance has worked and where it might be falling short. Universities and colleges are doing that exceptionally well just now, and such an approach should be done at school level.
This afternoon, the Scottish Government has set out the key elements of the strategy to modernise careers services across Scotland. That is welcome, but only as far as it goes. There is no doubt that some of the new approaches that have been highlighted will be enormously beneficial in providing youngsters with a much better awareness of what options are available. However, the strategy must be expanded considerably. I have concerns on two fronts, one of which echoes the concerns that Labour set out this afternoon.
First, what matters most is the quality of the information that is available and the ability of the youngster to understand and use information appropriately. New technology—especially new collaborative websites—can be important, but success will be determined by the qualitative judgments that the youngster makes. That requires human as well as technical input, and we should be in no doubt about the need for a fully co-ordinated approach in providing that. I whole-heartedly agree with Labour’s view that there is grave cause for concern about some of the evidence that was provided to the Education and Culture Committee, from which it was clear that by no means all the stakeholders involved agree on the best way forward.
Specifically, as Labour has said, there is concern that there is still scope for too many people to fall through the net. Labour has pointed to the registration issue, which is a serious concern. While I understand the principles of the system that the Government is trying to put into operation, I think that we must look carefully at expanding the whole process so that we not only have more youngsters involved, critically, at an earlier stage, but are satisfied that the process has the confidence of the main stakeholders.
As a politician and a former schoolteacher, I cannot overemphasise how important careers guidance is. We must get our approach to it right and we must be a bit broader in our outlook than the Scottish Government currently is.
I move amendment S4M-05109.1, to insert at end:
“, and recommends that the most significant progress is likely to be made if there is more personalised careers guidance available to all pupils in the early years of secondary school that is in line with the main principles of the curriculum for excellence and actively involves other partners such as local businesses, colleges and universities.”
“When exam time comes, the education system tells you to put away your calculators, your mobiles and your textbooks, and try to remember everything you have learnt for the last two years for a two hour exam. Don’t copy anyone … and don’t ask anyone for help. This must be all your own work”.
What happens on day 1 in the workplace? You are handed a calculator, a mobile and a set of instructions. You are told not to rely on anything that you have learned up till now and, whatever you do, to ask for help. It is the absolute opposite of the academic experience that finished only a few weeks before.
That is a bit of satire, perhaps, but it nonetheless serves to set out the culture shock that many young people face when they enter the world of work. At stake is somebody’s future career and their ability to know what to expect, understand the appropriate ethos, take instruction and know their rights and responsibilities. In short, it is as much about having good communication skills and how the person adds value to the workplace as it is about their qualifications.
The earliest discussions in a pupil’s school life about possible career paths can have the most significant impact. They by no means determine exactly what the pupil will do post school, but they certainly sow the seeds for possible paths.
It is, therefore, vital that those initial discussions are well informed and properly followed up, rather than involving mandatory chats from a teacher to the whole class or in some cases the whole year group. In the past, and even at a few schools today, the latter approach has been all too familiar and has done little more than advise pupils which prospectuses to read or which websites to use.
If the philosophy of earliest identification is true in looking after the social and educational needs of our youngest children, it is also true for careers guidance. In my book, that means starting out with better careers guidance in the early years of secondary school, prior to subject choice for external qualifications.
I would argue strongly that effective guidance is needed on why there are different approaches to the disciplines of science, arts and social sciences. Members may be surprised to learn that although pupils often know which subjects fall into those categories, they are not always aware of how one learns in the different disciplines. Knowledge must be complemented by an early understanding of the world of work and the skills that are required in any occupation.
We should be clear about schools’ obligations. First, there is—not least because of the principles that underpin the curriculum for excellence document “Building the Curriculum 4”—an obligation to ensure that the guidance that is provided at school is personal and no longer shaped by a-one-size-fits-all approach. Such an approach may be fine for the initial session, but it is certainly not appropriate as pupils begin to discuss their individual programmes.
I commend those schools throughout Scotland that take time to interview their pupils on a regular one-to-one basis and which, in the later years of school, ask pupils to select one member of the school staff to act as a personal tutor. The fact that the pupil has a choice has the huge advantage of ensuring that the system has a high chance of success and that the pupil sees that member of staff on a regular basis.
Secondly, schools have an obligation to ensure that they fully involve parents in the process, given that parents remain the biggest influence on young people’s choices in the early stages. It makes things much better if school and home are working together, and it is beneficial when local businesses or recruitment agencies can be involved too. As was said at the cross-party group, it is never too early to start work on what expectations are in the workplace and which skills are required in any professional working environment.
School are also obliged to ensure that they track pupils once they have left school so that they become much better informed about how well the careers guidance has worked and where it might be falling short. Universities and colleges are doing that exceptionally well just now, and such an approach should be done at school level.
This afternoon, the Scottish Government has set out the key elements of the strategy to modernise careers services across Scotland. That is welcome, but only as far as it goes. There is no doubt that some of the new approaches that have been highlighted will be enormously beneficial in providing youngsters with a much better awareness of what options are available. However, the strategy must be expanded considerably. I have concerns on two fronts, one of which echoes the concerns that Labour set out this afternoon.
First, what matters most is the quality of the information that is available and the ability of the youngster to understand and use information appropriately. New technology—especially new collaborative websites—can be important, but success will be determined by the qualitative judgments that the youngster makes. That requires human as well as technical input, and we should be in no doubt about the need for a fully co-ordinated approach in providing that. I whole-heartedly agree with Labour’s view that there is grave cause for concern about some of the evidence that was provided to the Education and Culture Committee, from which it was clear that by no means all the stakeholders involved agree on the best way forward.
Specifically, as Labour has said, there is concern that there is still scope for too many people to fall through the net. Labour has pointed to the registration issue, which is a serious concern. While I understand the principles of the system that the Government is trying to put into operation, I think that we must look carefully at expanding the whole process so that we not only have more youngsters involved, critically, at an earlier stage, but are satisfied that the process has the confidence of the main stakeholders.
As a politician and a former schoolteacher, I cannot overemphasise how important careers guidance is. We must get our approach to it right and we must be a bit broader in our outlook than the Scottish Government currently is.
I move amendment S4M-05109.1, to insert at end:
“, and recommends that the most significant progress is likely to be made if there is more personalised careers guidance available to all pupils in the early years of secondary school that is in line with the main principles of the curriculum for excellence and actively involves other partners such as local businesses, colleges and universities.”
References in this contribution
Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-05109, in the name of Angela Constance, on the modernisation of Scotland’s careers services.14:57
The Minister for Youth Employment (Angela Constance)
SNP
Having the right people with the right skills in the right jobs is central to growing Scotland’s economy, and an effective careers service is a crucial found...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I am interested in the minister’s comments on a “universal service for all young people”. I have in front of me “Putting Learners at the Centre—Delivering ou...
Angela Constance
SNP
Absolutely not. One of the strengths of the careers service as it stands but enhanced by modernisation is that it will be flexible and responsive. With the u...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
The move from face-to-face support to online support has its challenges, of course. Is the minister aware, for example, of the recent figures that I have, wh...
Angela Constance
SNP
Let us be clear that a person does not need to be registered to access the careers service, but of course we want young people to register, as we think that ...
Kezia Dugdale
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Angela Constance
SNP
Not just now—I have not finished dealing with Mr Smith’s point.With every month that goes by, registration increases by 10 to 15 per cent. I also take except...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Angela Constance
SNP
No, thank you.Those young people will receive career management skills in the classroom as part of the curriculum for excellence. That is our baseline univer...
Kezia Dugdale
Lab
The minister says that she wants careers services to be at the heart of the system. How, then, can she explain a 20 per cent cut in front-line services? That...
Angela Constance
SNP
Miss Dugdale will be aware—it is no secret—that Skills Development Scotland has had a voluntary severance scheme, which ended in March 2012. However, there h...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I am not a member of the Education and Culture Committee and I am quite new to the issue, but I have read the briefing from Unison, which says that 93 per ce...
Angela Constance
SNP
I am aware of that survey only because it is quoted in the Unison briefing that has been distributed to members today. I have of course seen press comments a...
Kezia Dugdale
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Angela Constance
SNP
No. The survey had 350 staff—Interruption.
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Ms Dugdale, sit down.
Angela Constance
SNP
I understand that 350 staff participated in the survey, out of a head count of 1,150 staff. The survey took place before the intensive face-to-face engagemen...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Can we stop having remarks from a sedentary position?
Angela Constance
SNP
The Government is firmly committed to high-quality universal careers services for people of all ages. We are committed to services that are independent, impa...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
My experience of being a recipient of careers guidance at school was not particularly good, but that probably says more about my attitude as a surly, spotty ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell)
SNP
No.
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I think that in this case Mr Russell was the innocent party. Some of his colleagues were certainly intervening.
Neil Findlay
Lab
I humbly apologise. Someone must have the same dulcet tones as Mr Russell.Help for young people with careers development is important. Our young people need ...
Angela Constance
SNP
I am certainly aware of the research that those reputable researchers conducted in 2009, which was actually pre my world of work. Does Mr Findlay accept that...
Neil Findlay
Lab
I am just coming to that point. The academics suggest that web-based services, while potentially a useful tool, should not replace the current face-to-face c...
Angela Constance
SNP
Will Mr Findlay give way?
Neil Findlay
Lab
Certainly.
Angela Constance
SNP
As Mr Findlay is so well informed by his trade union and Skills Development Scotland sources, does he accept the commitment that has been given that, in the ...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Presiding Officer, I think that we have heard enough from the minister now.