Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 19 April 2012
19 Apr 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Criminal Cases (Punishment and Review) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I note John Finnie’s light touch in describing part 1 as “the easy bit”. On that basis, I look forward to his forthcoming book, “A Treatise on Scots Law”, because there is no doubt that if he found part 1 easy to understand, it would be a fascinating book to read.
The Criminal Cases (Punishment and Review) (Scotland) Bill is one piece of legislation with a title that trips off the tongue. Members who have followed the committee’s deliberations will know the torrid time that we faced together in trying to understand the complexities that are involved in simplifying the process at solemn procedure when judges calculate the punishment part of a non-mandatory life sentence, which is dealt with in part 1.
It is satisfying to note that, nonetheless, the committee came to support the aims of part 1 in seeking to address the anomaly that was identified through Petch and Foye v HM Advocate in 2011, whereby a life prisoner is likely to have a parole hearing earlier than a non-life prisoner who has been sentenced for a similar crime.
During our committee meetings, witnesses said much that evidenced the unsatisfactory nature of current sentencing guidelines; indeed, the cabinet secretary himself acknowledged that the bill was meant to be an immediate fix to the Petch and Foye challenge and did not seek to address the structure of custodial sentencing more broadly. To that extent, the bill is disappointing in its ambitions. I hope that, as was alluded to by the cabinet secretary, the Government will consider further work in a reasonable timescale to address the wider issues affecting sentencing in order to ensure not only that judges can understand the procedures that are involved but—more important—that victims, witnesses and the general public can understand the system. I hope that the cabinet secretary will be able to address that outstanding matter.
I would like to see in the future the delivery of sentences that not only leave no doubt in the mind of the public about how a sentence is arrived at, but which announce the earliest date of release for a prisoner. That will give clarity and some comfort to people who are affected because they will be safe in the knowledge that an offender will not be on the streets in a free capacity before the said date.
Joanna Cherry QC said in her evidence to the committee that
“it is not just lay people who find the legislation extremely difficult to understand ... I am sure that it is an issue for the Parliament that legislation should be readily understandable to the public, particularly legislation to do with ... sentencing ... That is a strong factor in our concern about the bill’s complexity.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 31 January 2012; c 865.]
Sir Gerald Gordon QC echoed those sentiments when he acknowledged that even legal experts and members of the judiciary would struggle to understand all the provisions. Michael Meehan added that
“The bill complicates matters by requiring judges not only to consider the sentence that they will impose but to conduct a parallel notional sentence exercise.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 31 January 2012; c 866.]
Despite those reservations, I accept the authorities’ need to take steps to respond to the identified problem. In connection with that, I suggest that the cabinet secretary encourage the authorities to draw up an aide mémoire, written in everyday language, that is designed to explain to members of the public who are attending court exactly what the sentencing procedure is and how judges decide sentences. Such documentation would—alongside Victim Support and other agencies—assist people to understand the processes.
With regard to part 2, events in respect of Megrahi have overtaken the import of our discussions on the matter. Part 2 seeks to establish a framework for the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission and, as other members have outlined, we have a greater understanding of some of the perceived hurdles and the real pathways forward. Nevertheless, it is troubling to acknowledge that a reporter who is based at The Herald newspaper in Glasgow has greater latitude to manoeuvre to allow publication of a report from the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission than is available to the First Minister and his Government.
A subsequent update to legal advice has indicated that previous reservations with regard to data protection and other issues were ill-founded. Although it is difficult to identify a purpose for that part of the bill now, the Government continues to press for its enactment. I well understand, with regard to Christine Grahame’s contribution, the wrecking impact of our committee seeking to interfere with that process.
Nevertheless, it is useful to acknowledge that, during conversations in committee and in taking evidence, Len Murray, who is a highly respected lawyer, said that in his view the bill could create as many difficulties as it might solve, and Ian McKie commented that the current legislation and the bill as drafted would inhibit rather than assist the release of information. Both appeared before the committee as members of the justice for Megrahi campaign. Whatever their view, and the outcome, the SCCRC raised one practical issue regarding its ability to deal with financial costs. I hope that the Government will take account of that observation and respond to it in due course.
15:48
The Criminal Cases (Punishment and Review) (Scotland) Bill is one piece of legislation with a title that trips off the tongue. Members who have followed the committee’s deliberations will know the torrid time that we faced together in trying to understand the complexities that are involved in simplifying the process at solemn procedure when judges calculate the punishment part of a non-mandatory life sentence, which is dealt with in part 1.
It is satisfying to note that, nonetheless, the committee came to support the aims of part 1 in seeking to address the anomaly that was identified through Petch and Foye v HM Advocate in 2011, whereby a life prisoner is likely to have a parole hearing earlier than a non-life prisoner who has been sentenced for a similar crime.
During our committee meetings, witnesses said much that evidenced the unsatisfactory nature of current sentencing guidelines; indeed, the cabinet secretary himself acknowledged that the bill was meant to be an immediate fix to the Petch and Foye challenge and did not seek to address the structure of custodial sentencing more broadly. To that extent, the bill is disappointing in its ambitions. I hope that, as was alluded to by the cabinet secretary, the Government will consider further work in a reasonable timescale to address the wider issues affecting sentencing in order to ensure not only that judges can understand the procedures that are involved but—more important—that victims, witnesses and the general public can understand the system. I hope that the cabinet secretary will be able to address that outstanding matter.
I would like to see in the future the delivery of sentences that not only leave no doubt in the mind of the public about how a sentence is arrived at, but which announce the earliest date of release for a prisoner. That will give clarity and some comfort to people who are affected because they will be safe in the knowledge that an offender will not be on the streets in a free capacity before the said date.
Joanna Cherry QC said in her evidence to the committee that
“it is not just lay people who find the legislation extremely difficult to understand ... I am sure that it is an issue for the Parliament that legislation should be readily understandable to the public, particularly legislation to do with ... sentencing ... That is a strong factor in our concern about the bill’s complexity.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 31 January 2012; c 865.]
Sir Gerald Gordon QC echoed those sentiments when he acknowledged that even legal experts and members of the judiciary would struggle to understand all the provisions. Michael Meehan added that
“The bill complicates matters by requiring judges not only to consider the sentence that they will impose but to conduct a parallel notional sentence exercise.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 31 January 2012; c 866.]
Despite those reservations, I accept the authorities’ need to take steps to respond to the identified problem. In connection with that, I suggest that the cabinet secretary encourage the authorities to draw up an aide mémoire, written in everyday language, that is designed to explain to members of the public who are attending court exactly what the sentencing procedure is and how judges decide sentences. Such documentation would—alongside Victim Support and other agencies—assist people to understand the processes.
With regard to part 2, events in respect of Megrahi have overtaken the import of our discussions on the matter. Part 2 seeks to establish a framework for the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission and, as other members have outlined, we have a greater understanding of some of the perceived hurdles and the real pathways forward. Nevertheless, it is troubling to acknowledge that a reporter who is based at The Herald newspaper in Glasgow has greater latitude to manoeuvre to allow publication of a report from the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission than is available to the First Minister and his Government.
A subsequent update to legal advice has indicated that previous reservations with regard to data protection and other issues were ill-founded. Although it is difficult to identify a purpose for that part of the bill now, the Government continues to press for its enactment. I well understand, with regard to Christine Grahame’s contribution, the wrecking impact of our committee seeking to interfere with that process.
Nevertheless, it is useful to acknowledge that, during conversations in committee and in taking evidence, Len Murray, who is a highly respected lawyer, said that in his view the bill could create as many difficulties as it might solve, and Ian McKie commented that the current legislation and the bill as drafted would inhibit rather than assist the release of information. Both appeared before the committee as members of the justice for Megrahi campaign. Whatever their view, and the outcome, the SCCRC raised one practical issue regarding its ability to deal with financial costs. I hope that the Government will take account of that observation and respond to it in due course.
15:48
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02617, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on the Criminal Cases (Punishment and Review) (Scotland) Bill.I wi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
It would appear that we have a problem with Mr MacAskill’s card. Can we do something about the sound? Interruption. Thank you.I call Mr MacAskill to speak to...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
Thank you for your forbearance, Presiding Officer.I thank the Justice Committee for its careful stage 1 scrutiny of the Criminal Cases (Punishment and Review...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am interested in the cabinet secretary’s view on whether a less complex approach could have been taken had the bill been a bit more ambitious in scope. In ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
That is not the case. There are two separate matters. The Petch and Foye judgment caused considerable concern and was commented on not only by me but by just...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
Does the cabinet secretary accept that it would have been helpful to have consulted the information commissioner at a much earlier stage in order to resolve ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
It was not up to us to consult the information commissioner, because these matters have to be dealt with by the SCCRC. We have always sought to facilitate ev...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I call Christine Grahame to speak to the motion on behalf of the Justice Committee.15:11
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on behalf of the Justice Committee—at least, that is what it says here. I thank all those who gave evidence to t...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Alongside other committee members who are present, I had the opportunity to scrutinise the bill closely as it passed through the Justice Committee. I want to...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
Does the member accept that part 2 of the bill has a wider application than just Mr al-Megrahi’s case?
Jenny Marra
Lab
John Finnie may, like me, hope that part 2 will have a wider implication in future, although it is difficult to predict when that might be. However, we will ...
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
As other members have done, I speak as a member of the Justice Committee, which has had responsibility for scrutinising the bill, the first part of which was...
John Finnie
SNP
Does the member accept that the Government’s position remains that the manifesto commitment will be implemented once the terms of the McLeish commission are ...
David McLetchie
Con
Yes—I accept that that is the position, but that is a cover-up for not implementing anything, as Mr Finnie will realise, the longer he serves in this Parliam...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I will concentrate on part 1 of the bill—the easy bit. We know that part 1 resulted from the much-talked-about Petch and Foye case. As we have heard, part 1 ...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I note John Finnie’s light touch in describing part 1 as “the easy bit”. On that basis, I look forward to his forthcoming book, “A Treatise on Scots Law”, be...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I refer members to my entry in the register of interests as a member of the Faculty of Advocates. One of the advantages of the recess is that it enables one ...
Humza Yousaf (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Justice Committee, I, too, thank everybody who came forward and gave evidence on the bill.There is a constant underlying theme in the deba...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Hear, hear.
Humza Yousaf
SNP
Thank you. However, luckily, my wife studied law, which was very helpful to me. I have sympathy for Alison McInnes and for Colin Keir—who has disappeared fro...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
Presiding Officer, I think that I deserve full marks for bravery as the first non-member of the Justice Committee to venture into these choppy waters without...
Mark McDonald (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Where Malcolm Chisholm leads, I will boldly follow, as another non-member of the Justice Committee entering bravely into the fray. Never has the old quotatio...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The Criminal Cases (Punishment and Review) (Scotland) Bill is needed to remedy the judgment handed down in Petch and Foye v Her Majesty’s Advocate. The bill ...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
Over the past year, members of the Justice Committee have been faced with some complex material to digest in the course of their deliberations.As we have hea...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
Like other committee members, I am grateful to everyone who submitted evidence on the bill, because they certainly helped us to get to grips with an extremel...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
SNP
When I was given the task of being a member of the Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee, I never thought that I would be grateful for that...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I have to say that I confused myself. John Green is an intruder.
Dennis Robertson
SNP
I thought that it was males who had the problem with reds and greens.The matter that we are debating is very serious, and it needs to be resolved. I congratu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
That brings us to closing speeches. I remind members who were in the chamber for the debate that they should be here for closing speeches.I have a little bit...