Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 May 2012
24 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill
I thank Nicola Sturgeon for pioneering the bill. It is pioneering legislation and she is out there in front, proposing a measure that a lot of people will not like. We talk about the bill in Parliament as if it will be immensely popular. However, if it is going to be effective, a lot of people will not like it. Introducing such legislation takes a certain amount of courage, so I thank Nicola Sturgeon for the effort that she has put in over a number of years, despite opposition from my party, from the Conservatives and from Labour.
I have always believed in minimum pricing. I had to be relatively quiet about that in the past, but I have always been supportive of it—I always was at Westminster. The party in Scotland was finely balanced—it was not absolutely against minimum pricing, but the decision that the party came to was that it did not support it. I had to charm party members and I had to work on them when I became leader. Fortunately, they agreed with me and they now support the bill. I am pleased that we have put our differences with the SNP aside and are now working for the bill.
For me, the evidence is quite clear. The important connections, as referred to by Kenneth Gibson, are the connection between price and consumption, and between consumption and harm. If we look back 30 years, drink is more affordable now by between 45 per cent and 70 per cent. Price has gone up by 22 per cent, but incomes have gone up dramatically more than that—by 97 per cent in that period—so drink is much more affordable.
In the same period, consumption has gone up by 20 to 22 per cent and the number of deaths has doubled. As I have mentioned previously, I used to work in my father’s shop and I cannot see a dramatic difference between the prices of whisky now and the prices that my father used to sell it at. That is simple and straightforward evidence that everybody can see.
I have seen at first hand in Dunfermline the problems in our communities. There is antisocial behaviour and families that are absolutely wrecked by alcohol abuse and the health problems that it causes. People are desperate to get into hospital to get treatment so that they can deal with their alcohol problems. That is clear evidence and a clear result.
We could easily go down the route of just doing the simple things that everybody suggests, such as education and information, but the reality is that the tougher we make the measures, the more impact they will have. I ask the Labour Party how long we have to wait for the perfect solution before we move ahead? The bill might not be exactly right and it might not have exactly the desired effect according to the predictions, but let us get on with it because the situation is dire.
I referred earlier to public concern. I am a frequent user of Facebook and whenever I put up something about alcohol minimum pricing, the negative reaction is considerable. People out there will be angry about the measure, but if they are not angry, that is because we are not having an effect. For measures to be effective in reducing alcohol abuse, some people will have to feel them. That is why it is important that we move ahead with the bill. We have to be prepared for the backlash that I am sure will come.
I am grateful for the support of the organisations that are represented in the public gallery. Health bodies such as the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and Alcohol Focus Scotland support the bill, but there are also some surprising supporters, including Tesco, as I have mentioned previously. That is the kind of backing that we will need to get us through the coming period. The battle to deal with the problem has just begun. We need to ensure that we are effective in that so that we deal with the blight of alcohol on our society.
16:27
I have always believed in minimum pricing. I had to be relatively quiet about that in the past, but I have always been supportive of it—I always was at Westminster. The party in Scotland was finely balanced—it was not absolutely against minimum pricing, but the decision that the party came to was that it did not support it. I had to charm party members and I had to work on them when I became leader. Fortunately, they agreed with me and they now support the bill. I am pleased that we have put our differences with the SNP aside and are now working for the bill.
For me, the evidence is quite clear. The important connections, as referred to by Kenneth Gibson, are the connection between price and consumption, and between consumption and harm. If we look back 30 years, drink is more affordable now by between 45 per cent and 70 per cent. Price has gone up by 22 per cent, but incomes have gone up dramatically more than that—by 97 per cent in that period—so drink is much more affordable.
In the same period, consumption has gone up by 20 to 22 per cent and the number of deaths has doubled. As I have mentioned previously, I used to work in my father’s shop and I cannot see a dramatic difference between the prices of whisky now and the prices that my father used to sell it at. That is simple and straightforward evidence that everybody can see.
I have seen at first hand in Dunfermline the problems in our communities. There is antisocial behaviour and families that are absolutely wrecked by alcohol abuse and the health problems that it causes. People are desperate to get into hospital to get treatment so that they can deal with their alcohol problems. That is clear evidence and a clear result.
We could easily go down the route of just doing the simple things that everybody suggests, such as education and information, but the reality is that the tougher we make the measures, the more impact they will have. I ask the Labour Party how long we have to wait for the perfect solution before we move ahead? The bill might not be exactly right and it might not have exactly the desired effect according to the predictions, but let us get on with it because the situation is dire.
I referred earlier to public concern. I am a frequent user of Facebook and whenever I put up something about alcohol minimum pricing, the negative reaction is considerable. People out there will be angry about the measure, but if they are not angry, that is because we are not having an effect. For measures to be effective in reducing alcohol abuse, some people will have to feel them. That is why it is important that we move ahead with the bill. We have to be prepared for the backlash that I am sure will come.
I am grateful for the support of the organisations that are represented in the public gallery. Health bodies such as the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and Alcohol Focus Scotland support the bill, but there are also some surprising supporters, including Tesco, as I have mentioned previously. That is the kind of backing that we will need to get us through the coming period. The battle to deal with the problem has just begun. We need to ensure that we are effective in that so that we deal with the blight of alcohol on our society.
16:27
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02967, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill. I call on Nicola...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I wish to advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Alcohol (M...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
If Jackie Baillie wants to comment on Diane Abbott’s support for the Scottish Government, I will be delighted to take an intervention.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for her generosity. First it was the First Minister, and now the Deputy First Minister is following Diane Abbott. I am delighte...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
What Jackie Baillie does not tell members is that, before saying that, Yvette Cooper said that she supported minimum pricing. That is the position of Yvette ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, welcome the opportunity to participate in the stage 3 debate on minimum pricing, and I too record my thanks to all involved.Throughout the passage of...
Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
Could the member briefly examine whether that figure of 25 per cent is a mean figure across the country? I doubt that it is. I am sure that there are areas o...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I think that the figure varies by income, which I think is the point that the member is making. I am sure that people will look forward to drinking more with...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I am afraid that the member is running out of time.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
—of large supermarkets at the expense of hard-working public services.I move amendment S4M-02967.1, to insert at end:“but, in so doing, strongly believes tha...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Today is a significant day. Alcohol minimum unit pricing has been the centre of debate in the current session and the previous session of Parliament, almost ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of four minutes.16:06
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
The arguments against minimum pricing on the basis of potential supermarket profits or increased revenues have been well and truly exposed this afternoon as ...
Margo MacDonald
Ind
I wonder if the member would like to answer a question for me. What does he see as the result of this measure? Does he see everyone drinking a little less or...
Bob Doris
SNP
It is not how I see it; it is what the evidence points to, which is that the most harmful drinkers will be most affected by these measures. That is what the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Yes.
Bob Doris
SNP
Oh dear. I will be brief.The health benefits of minimum pricing differ according to which group we are talking about. It is said that minimum pricing will ha...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful to be able to speak in the debate, given that I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee.I want to look at the bill in a slightly diff...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank Jackie Baillie for covering most of the ground on the thinking behind Labour’s approach to the bill. Equally, I thank Sandra White and Bob Doris, who...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The member has no time. He has precisely 10 seconds left.
Graeme Pearson
Lab
I support the amendment in Jackie Baillie’s name.16:19
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
I have to say that I do not agree with the cabinet secretary because I do not think that Labour’s pitiful opposition to the bill is a fig leaf so much as it ...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
I thank Nicola Sturgeon for pioneering the bill. It is pioneering legislation and she is out there in front, proposing a measure that a lot of people will no...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. Alcohol minimum pricing is the latest step to change the dri...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green)
Green
I am very pleased that we are introducing minimum pricing of alcohol. The Scottish Greens have supported the bill in this session and we supported the simila...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate that we have had, I welcome the bill and I welcome the fact that, at 5 o’clock tonight, it will become the law of Scotland. I also welco...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
This has been a short but slightly depressing debate in the sense that, even at this late stage, the argument about the bill has continued even though, after...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In 2001, as the Deputy Minister for Justice, I recognised that Scotland had a growing problem with alcohol and that we were well into the third wave in our h...