Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 May 2012
24 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill
I am grateful to be able to speak in the debate, given that I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee.
I want to look at the bill in a slightly different way. The health issues, which are extremely important, have been covered, but I want to focus on two specific issues: overconsumption of alcohol and availability of cheap alcohol, and the problems that they give rise to.
As the constituency member for Glasgow Kelvin, I represent an area that has the greatest concentration in Glasgow—possibly in Scotland—of pubs, clubs, theatres and entertainment venues, which stretch from Byres Road in the west to Sauchiehall Street and the merchant city in the city centre. The area is the hub of Glasgow’s night life, where thriving businesses attract thousands of visitors—tourists and locals alike—at the weekend. They are what makes Glasgow famous and so vibrant.
However, it would be remiss of me not to say that in some—but not all—areas we have problems that are caused by overconsumption of alcohol. Overconsumption causes problems not just for the consumer of alcohol, but for the police, medics and the public in general. The issue must be tackled. Although, as the cabinet secretary said, minimum pricing is not a panacea, we must do something to ensure that we no longer see people lying on pavements or in gutters absolutely drunk. We must do so not just for health reasons, but for the sake of the economy and of the people who visit Glasgow and other parts of Scotland.
The pubs and clubs are not solely responsible for the problem; it is mainly a result of the so-called pre-loading of cheap alcohol that has been bought in supermarkets. In some cases, it is cheaper to buy a litre of alcoholic drink than it is to buy a litre of water. I have spoken to many people in the licensed trade in Glasgow. Paul Waterson of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association says that we need minimum pricing because there is no control over the drinking of people who buy alcohol from supermarkets at knock-down prices. He believes that some people drink for drinking’s sake. Pre-loading of cheap alcohol has become endemic. People who go to licensed premises drink in a controlled environment, but if they drink at home, there is no control. When people go out after getting tanked up on cheap supermarket booze, it is the pubs and the clubs that have to deal with them. We should listen to the SLTA.
The Deputy First Minister mentioned the fact that the pub trade is struggling, and she is absolutely right. Once-thriving pubs, many of which used to be hubs of their communities, are indeed struggling because supermarkets are selling cheap booze. Local pubs that were once social meeting places for many people are closing. I think—I know that the licensed trade does, too—that the balance has shifted too far, so we need to look at restoring the balance.
At one time, people would go out to pubs to enjoy the sociable atmosphere, but with the availability of cheap booze, that is no longer the case. I have some figures that illustrate that. Off-trade sales increased by 52 per cent between 1994 and 2010, whereas the on-trade experienced a fall in sales of 29 per cent. I am talking about the city centre of Glasgow and other areas that I represent; I am talking about pubs that are hubs in their communities and are social gathering places. It is time we listened to the licensed trade. I hope that we can resurrect some of those local pubs, which do so much for communities.
As I have said, minimum pricing is not a panacea, but it is a start, and we should all fully support it.
16:15
I want to look at the bill in a slightly different way. The health issues, which are extremely important, have been covered, but I want to focus on two specific issues: overconsumption of alcohol and availability of cheap alcohol, and the problems that they give rise to.
As the constituency member for Glasgow Kelvin, I represent an area that has the greatest concentration in Glasgow—possibly in Scotland—of pubs, clubs, theatres and entertainment venues, which stretch from Byres Road in the west to Sauchiehall Street and the merchant city in the city centre. The area is the hub of Glasgow’s night life, where thriving businesses attract thousands of visitors—tourists and locals alike—at the weekend. They are what makes Glasgow famous and so vibrant.
However, it would be remiss of me not to say that in some—but not all—areas we have problems that are caused by overconsumption of alcohol. Overconsumption causes problems not just for the consumer of alcohol, but for the police, medics and the public in general. The issue must be tackled. Although, as the cabinet secretary said, minimum pricing is not a panacea, we must do something to ensure that we no longer see people lying on pavements or in gutters absolutely drunk. We must do so not just for health reasons, but for the sake of the economy and of the people who visit Glasgow and other parts of Scotland.
The pubs and clubs are not solely responsible for the problem; it is mainly a result of the so-called pre-loading of cheap alcohol that has been bought in supermarkets. In some cases, it is cheaper to buy a litre of alcoholic drink than it is to buy a litre of water. I have spoken to many people in the licensed trade in Glasgow. Paul Waterson of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association says that we need minimum pricing because there is no control over the drinking of people who buy alcohol from supermarkets at knock-down prices. He believes that some people drink for drinking’s sake. Pre-loading of cheap alcohol has become endemic. People who go to licensed premises drink in a controlled environment, but if they drink at home, there is no control. When people go out after getting tanked up on cheap supermarket booze, it is the pubs and the clubs that have to deal with them. We should listen to the SLTA.
The Deputy First Minister mentioned the fact that the pub trade is struggling, and she is absolutely right. Once-thriving pubs, many of which used to be hubs of their communities, are indeed struggling because supermarkets are selling cheap booze. Local pubs that were once social meeting places for many people are closing. I think—I know that the licensed trade does, too—that the balance has shifted too far, so we need to look at restoring the balance.
At one time, people would go out to pubs to enjoy the sociable atmosphere, but with the availability of cheap booze, that is no longer the case. I have some figures that illustrate that. Off-trade sales increased by 52 per cent between 1994 and 2010, whereas the on-trade experienced a fall in sales of 29 per cent. I am talking about the city centre of Glasgow and other areas that I represent; I am talking about pubs that are hubs in their communities and are social gathering places. It is time we listened to the licensed trade. I hope that we can resurrect some of those local pubs, which do so much for communities.
As I have said, minimum pricing is not a panacea, but it is a start, and we should all fully support it.
16:15
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02967, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill. I call on Nicola...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I wish to advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Alcohol (M...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
If Jackie Baillie wants to comment on Diane Abbott’s support for the Scottish Government, I will be delighted to take an intervention.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for her generosity. First it was the First Minister, and now the Deputy First Minister is following Diane Abbott. I am delighte...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
What Jackie Baillie does not tell members is that, before saying that, Yvette Cooper said that she supported minimum pricing. That is the position of Yvette ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, welcome the opportunity to participate in the stage 3 debate on minimum pricing, and I too record my thanks to all involved.Throughout the passage of...
Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
Could the member briefly examine whether that figure of 25 per cent is a mean figure across the country? I doubt that it is. I am sure that there are areas o...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I think that the figure varies by income, which I think is the point that the member is making. I am sure that people will look forward to drinking more with...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I am afraid that the member is running out of time.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
—of large supermarkets at the expense of hard-working public services.I move amendment S4M-02967.1, to insert at end:“but, in so doing, strongly believes tha...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Today is a significant day. Alcohol minimum unit pricing has been the centre of debate in the current session and the previous session of Parliament, almost ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of four minutes.16:06
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
The arguments against minimum pricing on the basis of potential supermarket profits or increased revenues have been well and truly exposed this afternoon as ...
Margo MacDonald
Ind
I wonder if the member would like to answer a question for me. What does he see as the result of this measure? Does he see everyone drinking a little less or...
Bob Doris
SNP
It is not how I see it; it is what the evidence points to, which is that the most harmful drinkers will be most affected by these measures. That is what the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Yes.
Bob Doris
SNP
Oh dear. I will be brief.The health benefits of minimum pricing differ according to which group we are talking about. It is said that minimum pricing will ha...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful to be able to speak in the debate, given that I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee.I want to look at the bill in a slightly diff...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank Jackie Baillie for covering most of the ground on the thinking behind Labour’s approach to the bill. Equally, I thank Sandra White and Bob Doris, who...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The member has no time. He has precisely 10 seconds left.
Graeme Pearson
Lab
I support the amendment in Jackie Baillie’s name.16:19
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
I have to say that I do not agree with the cabinet secretary because I do not think that Labour’s pitiful opposition to the bill is a fig leaf so much as it ...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
I thank Nicola Sturgeon for pioneering the bill. It is pioneering legislation and she is out there in front, proposing a measure that a lot of people will no...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. Alcohol minimum pricing is the latest step to change the dri...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green)
Green
I am very pleased that we are introducing minimum pricing of alcohol. The Scottish Greens have supported the bill in this session and we supported the simila...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate that we have had, I welcome the bill and I welcome the fact that, at 5 o’clock tonight, it will become the law of Scotland. I also welco...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
This has been a short but slightly depressing debate in the sense that, even at this late stage, the argument about the bill has continued even though, after...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In 2001, as the Deputy Minister for Justice, I recognised that Scotland had a growing problem with alcohol and that we were well into the third wave in our h...