Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 May 2012
24 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill
Today is a significant day. Alcohol minimum unit pricing has been the centre of debate in the current session and the previous session of Parliament, almost to the detraction of the wider discussion that the Parliament needs to have about Scotland’s relationship with alcohol. I do not want to detract from what the cabinet secretary said a few moments ago about the bill being one of a raft of measures that are already in place, but it has undoubtedly preoccupied the debate in the chamber.
We Scottish Conservatives have changed our position. In the previous session of Parliament, we felt that the legislation that was implemented by the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat Administration had not had time to prove itself, and that the evidence base was not sufficiently balanced to allow us to support alcohol minimum unit pricing at that time.
In one of my first speeches to Parliament, I said that I personally did not rule out alcohol minimum unit pricing, and in supporting it today, I very much hope that it will work. I fear that the measure cannot achieve all that some have hoped for it as the bill has progressed through committee, but I believe that it will make a contribution. The Parliament must hope in passing the legislation that it succeeds.
I am pleased that, where Scottish Conservatives have led, London Conservatives have chosen to follow. That is a perfect example of Scotland and Scottish Conservatives showing our colleagues in the south the way forward in tackling major policy issues in public health.
We are concerned that some of what has been claimed for the bill may not be achieved, and we respect the views of those who, throughout the progress of the legislation, have argued that it cannot succeed. We understand that there is a degree of scepticism, even while we think that the balance of evidence has now tipped very much in favour of allowing the policy its moment to shine.
That is why we proposed the inclusion of a sunset clause, and we were grateful for the support of other parties in that regard. The cabinet secretary’s point is worth emphasising: for those who are sceptical about the policy, the sunset clause is their opportunity to know that, in the event that the policy demonstrably does not have the effect that is claimed for it, the legislation will fall.
On that basis, there is really no good reason for the Parliament not to unite tonight around the policy, and to give it the authority that would enhance it by having all-party support in the chamber so that the people of Scotland can see that we are all robustly in support of it and behind its every prospect of success.
We are keen that the legal position be established, and we are grateful that the Government will allow the legislation to be the subject of a voluntary notification. I hope that that process will be completed at the earliest possible date, because we want to know that—in proposing pioneering legislation that the rest of the world will be looking at—we did everything we could to establish the legal position in advance. I heard what the cabinet secretary said about legality. We very much hope that that is the case, and that the legislation can be implemented and take effect to the timetable that the cabinet secretary has identified.
Dr Simpson, for whom I have considerable respect, talked about the windfall tax being Labour’s red line. During the committee stages, I understood his reservations about the legislation—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but until stage 2, I never heard the Labour Party say that it would vote for the bill if agreement was reached on that one aspect. In that regard, regrettably—I have no wish for a party-political debate—I have sympathy with the cabinet secretary’s argument that we are divided at this final stage for political reasons.
I have something to say to Jackie Baillie, to Richard Simpson, and to Drew Smith—clearly the front runner for the future leadership of his party. Does he want to have this stain on his character in future years when people come to look at what this Parliament did? They are lost in the detail of Dr Simpson’s experience and prejudices, to the extent that Labour has lost sight of the bigger picture. I do not think that Labour members sit behind him comfortable in what they are doing, and even now, I appeal to them to allow the chamber to unite and give the policy the authority that it commands.
We Scottish Conservatives have changed our position. In the previous session of Parliament, we felt that the legislation that was implemented by the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat Administration had not had time to prove itself, and that the evidence base was not sufficiently balanced to allow us to support alcohol minimum unit pricing at that time.
In one of my first speeches to Parliament, I said that I personally did not rule out alcohol minimum unit pricing, and in supporting it today, I very much hope that it will work. I fear that the measure cannot achieve all that some have hoped for it as the bill has progressed through committee, but I believe that it will make a contribution. The Parliament must hope in passing the legislation that it succeeds.
I am pleased that, where Scottish Conservatives have led, London Conservatives have chosen to follow. That is a perfect example of Scotland and Scottish Conservatives showing our colleagues in the south the way forward in tackling major policy issues in public health.
We are concerned that some of what has been claimed for the bill may not be achieved, and we respect the views of those who, throughout the progress of the legislation, have argued that it cannot succeed. We understand that there is a degree of scepticism, even while we think that the balance of evidence has now tipped very much in favour of allowing the policy its moment to shine.
That is why we proposed the inclusion of a sunset clause, and we were grateful for the support of other parties in that regard. The cabinet secretary’s point is worth emphasising: for those who are sceptical about the policy, the sunset clause is their opportunity to know that, in the event that the policy demonstrably does not have the effect that is claimed for it, the legislation will fall.
On that basis, there is really no good reason for the Parliament not to unite tonight around the policy, and to give it the authority that would enhance it by having all-party support in the chamber so that the people of Scotland can see that we are all robustly in support of it and behind its every prospect of success.
We are keen that the legal position be established, and we are grateful that the Government will allow the legislation to be the subject of a voluntary notification. I hope that that process will be completed at the earliest possible date, because we want to know that—in proposing pioneering legislation that the rest of the world will be looking at—we did everything we could to establish the legal position in advance. I heard what the cabinet secretary said about legality. We very much hope that that is the case, and that the legislation can be implemented and take effect to the timetable that the cabinet secretary has identified.
Dr Simpson, for whom I have considerable respect, talked about the windfall tax being Labour’s red line. During the committee stages, I understood his reservations about the legislation—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but until stage 2, I never heard the Labour Party say that it would vote for the bill if agreement was reached on that one aspect. In that regard, regrettably—I have no wish for a party-political debate—I have sympathy with the cabinet secretary’s argument that we are divided at this final stage for political reasons.
I have something to say to Jackie Baillie, to Richard Simpson, and to Drew Smith—clearly the front runner for the future leadership of his party. Does he want to have this stain on his character in future years when people come to look at what this Parliament did? They are lost in the detail of Dr Simpson’s experience and prejudices, to the extent that Labour has lost sight of the bigger picture. I do not think that Labour members sit behind him comfortable in what they are doing, and even now, I appeal to them to allow the chamber to unite and give the policy the authority that it commands.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02967, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill. I call on Nicola...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I wish to advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Alcohol (M...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
If Jackie Baillie wants to comment on Diane Abbott’s support for the Scottish Government, I will be delighted to take an intervention.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for her generosity. First it was the First Minister, and now the Deputy First Minister is following Diane Abbott. I am delighte...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
What Jackie Baillie does not tell members is that, before saying that, Yvette Cooper said that she supported minimum pricing. That is the position of Yvette ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, welcome the opportunity to participate in the stage 3 debate on minimum pricing, and I too record my thanks to all involved.Throughout the passage of...
Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
Could the member briefly examine whether that figure of 25 per cent is a mean figure across the country? I doubt that it is. I am sure that there are areas o...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I think that the figure varies by income, which I think is the point that the member is making. I am sure that people will look forward to drinking more with...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I am afraid that the member is running out of time.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
—of large supermarkets at the expense of hard-working public services.I move amendment S4M-02967.1, to insert at end:“but, in so doing, strongly believes tha...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Today is a significant day. Alcohol minimum unit pricing has been the centre of debate in the current session and the previous session of Parliament, almost ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of four minutes.16:06
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
The arguments against minimum pricing on the basis of potential supermarket profits or increased revenues have been well and truly exposed this afternoon as ...
Margo MacDonald
Ind
I wonder if the member would like to answer a question for me. What does he see as the result of this measure? Does he see everyone drinking a little less or...
Bob Doris
SNP
It is not how I see it; it is what the evidence points to, which is that the most harmful drinkers will be most affected by these measures. That is what the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Yes.
Bob Doris
SNP
Oh dear. I will be brief.The health benefits of minimum pricing differ according to which group we are talking about. It is said that minimum pricing will ha...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful to be able to speak in the debate, given that I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee.I want to look at the bill in a slightly diff...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank Jackie Baillie for covering most of the ground on the thinking behind Labour’s approach to the bill. Equally, I thank Sandra White and Bob Doris, who...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The member has no time. He has precisely 10 seconds left.
Graeme Pearson
Lab
I support the amendment in Jackie Baillie’s name.16:19
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
I have to say that I do not agree with the cabinet secretary because I do not think that Labour’s pitiful opposition to the bill is a fig leaf so much as it ...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
I thank Nicola Sturgeon for pioneering the bill. It is pioneering legislation and she is out there in front, proposing a measure that a lot of people will no...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. Alcohol minimum pricing is the latest step to change the dri...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green)
Green
I am very pleased that we are introducing minimum pricing of alcohol. The Scottish Greens have supported the bill in this session and we supported the simila...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate that we have had, I welcome the bill and I welcome the fact that, at 5 o’clock tonight, it will become the law of Scotland. I also welco...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
This has been a short but slightly depressing debate in the sense that, even at this late stage, the argument about the bill has continued even though, after...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In 2001, as the Deputy Minister for Justice, I recognised that Scotland had a growing problem with alcohol and that we were well into the third wave in our h...