Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 May 2012
24 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill
I think that the figure varies by income, which I think is the point that the member is making. I am sure that people will look forward to drinking more with Margo MacDonald in future.
Drinking is not just a problem of the poor. I heard a telling comment from an Edinburgh wine merchant who told a middle-class audience that they should all support minimum unit pricing because it would not affect them—“We drink wine, not cider,” he said. However, the greatest growth in the number of people abusing alcohol involves middle-aged, middle-income women. Indeed, the rise in consumption in Scotland since 1994 is wholly explained by wine, while the consumption of beer and spirits has declined in that period.
We have concerns about three main areas: the legality of the measure; its efficacy; and, related to that, the windfall of £125 million, which will go, in the main, to supermarkets. On the issue of legality, I note that the cabinet secretary is offering to notify the price-setting order to the EU, and that is welcome. However, the bill itself should be notified, and not simply as an accompanying document. The cabinet secretary knows that there is a difference. The bill forms an important context. It describes how minimum pricing will be applied and it contains the mechanism for calculating the price of products on the market. I believe that the Tories thought that the cabinet secretary had promised them that she would notify the whole bill, but she is not delivering that in full.
On the issue of efficacy, there is little impact on young people or on binge drinking and there is no impact on caffeinated alcohol products such as Buckfast, which we know causes wired, wide-awake drunks who engage in a disproportionate level of violence on our streets. As I said, of all alcoholic drinks, the consumption of wine is increasing at a considerable pace, yet the minimum unit price will have only a marginal impact.
I acknowledge that, for some people, the minimum unit price will have an impact. Further, at least people are talking about the issue and awareness has been raised in a way that it has not been before. Indeed, the level of consumption has helpfully, although slowly, been on a steady decline since the passing of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, under the previous Administration.
The purpose of our reasoned amendment is to recoup the windfall of £125 million. The University of Sheffield model predicts that a minimum unit price of 50p will generate approximately £125 million each year as revenue for alcohol retailers. We know that supermarkets would be the biggest beneficiaries of that. The Confederation of British Industry believes that the figure will be in excess of £150 million. However, whatever the figure is, at a time when money is tight and the Scottish National Party is cutting the alcohol treatment budget by 7 per cent—more than £3 million—handing that money to supermarkets is, frankly, astonishing.
I am disappointed that the cabinet secretary has set her face against using—at least for the foreseeable future—the social responsibility levy, a measure that we supported. She could, of course, use the public health levy. Contrary to the SNP’s assertions, Labour supported the public health levy at the Local Government and Regeneration Committee when the order was debated. However, the public health levy takes back only £35 million in one year and applies only to retailers who sell tobacco and alcohol, yet a minimum unit price will generate £125 million each year, which is four times more than the cabinet secretary will claw back.
I know that the cabinet secretary believes that the supermarkets will reduce the price of bananas, which is, frankly, naive. Already I hear proposals to decrease the price of premium drink as a marketing ploy and to stock supermarket own-brand products in preference to others, but not one peep do I hear from the supermarkets about reducing the price of bananas.
This will be a massive leap of faith. Labour believes that there will be significant unintended consequences if the windfall remains with supermarkets, and that they could undermine the very purpose of the bill. That view is supported by the Institute of Fiscal Studies.
Our preference would have been to build on the alcohol duty escalator that was introduced by Alistair Darling and has been continued by the coalition, which brought about rises of 2 per cent above inflation, which this year meant a rise of 7 per cent. We supported a proposal from the alcohol commission that would create a duty floor, added to which would be the price of invoicing—the French have been using such a measure to good effect. We even suggested on a cross-party basis in the chamber that the restructuring of duty to link it to alcohol strength would be preferable; that was later suggested by the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
All those things would have raised the price of alcohol considerably, and would have returned the money to the public purse to be used for public services. Under the SNP’s proposal, not one penny will be spent on education, enforcement or treatment. Instead, the SNP wants to give supermarkets, which make billions of pounds of profit anyway, even more money. The SNP is stuffing the supermarkets’ pockets with gold when budgets across the public sector are being cut and it is cutting the alcohol treatment budget. People in Scotland just do not understand that: it does not make sense.
In closing, I observe that the cabinet secretary’s closing speech at stage 1 was very big on rhetoric but quite short on detail, which is surprising. I expect more of the same as the debate carries on, but I gently suggest that she change her tone—[Interruption.] I think that she should, because in her last speech she said that I was putting a blanket over my head on the issue, in an apparently witty reference to the lack of blankets in our hospitals, although she denied that at the time. That spectacularly backfired, so a bit of caution is required.
Tackling our relationship with alcohol is a serious issue. We have come forward with a serious suggestion to improve the bill and empower public services in tackling alcohol abuse in Scotland. There is time for the cabinet secretary to have a unified chamber, but she is in danger of losing it when she decides to fill the pockets—
Drinking is not just a problem of the poor. I heard a telling comment from an Edinburgh wine merchant who told a middle-class audience that they should all support minimum unit pricing because it would not affect them—“We drink wine, not cider,” he said. However, the greatest growth in the number of people abusing alcohol involves middle-aged, middle-income women. Indeed, the rise in consumption in Scotland since 1994 is wholly explained by wine, while the consumption of beer and spirits has declined in that period.
We have concerns about three main areas: the legality of the measure; its efficacy; and, related to that, the windfall of £125 million, which will go, in the main, to supermarkets. On the issue of legality, I note that the cabinet secretary is offering to notify the price-setting order to the EU, and that is welcome. However, the bill itself should be notified, and not simply as an accompanying document. The cabinet secretary knows that there is a difference. The bill forms an important context. It describes how minimum pricing will be applied and it contains the mechanism for calculating the price of products on the market. I believe that the Tories thought that the cabinet secretary had promised them that she would notify the whole bill, but she is not delivering that in full.
On the issue of efficacy, there is little impact on young people or on binge drinking and there is no impact on caffeinated alcohol products such as Buckfast, which we know causes wired, wide-awake drunks who engage in a disproportionate level of violence on our streets. As I said, of all alcoholic drinks, the consumption of wine is increasing at a considerable pace, yet the minimum unit price will have only a marginal impact.
I acknowledge that, for some people, the minimum unit price will have an impact. Further, at least people are talking about the issue and awareness has been raised in a way that it has not been before. Indeed, the level of consumption has helpfully, although slowly, been on a steady decline since the passing of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, under the previous Administration.
The purpose of our reasoned amendment is to recoup the windfall of £125 million. The University of Sheffield model predicts that a minimum unit price of 50p will generate approximately £125 million each year as revenue for alcohol retailers. We know that supermarkets would be the biggest beneficiaries of that. The Confederation of British Industry believes that the figure will be in excess of £150 million. However, whatever the figure is, at a time when money is tight and the Scottish National Party is cutting the alcohol treatment budget by 7 per cent—more than £3 million—handing that money to supermarkets is, frankly, astonishing.
I am disappointed that the cabinet secretary has set her face against using—at least for the foreseeable future—the social responsibility levy, a measure that we supported. She could, of course, use the public health levy. Contrary to the SNP’s assertions, Labour supported the public health levy at the Local Government and Regeneration Committee when the order was debated. However, the public health levy takes back only £35 million in one year and applies only to retailers who sell tobacco and alcohol, yet a minimum unit price will generate £125 million each year, which is four times more than the cabinet secretary will claw back.
I know that the cabinet secretary believes that the supermarkets will reduce the price of bananas, which is, frankly, naive. Already I hear proposals to decrease the price of premium drink as a marketing ploy and to stock supermarket own-brand products in preference to others, but not one peep do I hear from the supermarkets about reducing the price of bananas.
This will be a massive leap of faith. Labour believes that there will be significant unintended consequences if the windfall remains with supermarkets, and that they could undermine the very purpose of the bill. That view is supported by the Institute of Fiscal Studies.
Our preference would have been to build on the alcohol duty escalator that was introduced by Alistair Darling and has been continued by the coalition, which brought about rises of 2 per cent above inflation, which this year meant a rise of 7 per cent. We supported a proposal from the alcohol commission that would create a duty floor, added to which would be the price of invoicing—the French have been using such a measure to good effect. We even suggested on a cross-party basis in the chamber that the restructuring of duty to link it to alcohol strength would be preferable; that was later suggested by the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
All those things would have raised the price of alcohol considerably, and would have returned the money to the public purse to be used for public services. Under the SNP’s proposal, not one penny will be spent on education, enforcement or treatment. Instead, the SNP wants to give supermarkets, which make billions of pounds of profit anyway, even more money. The SNP is stuffing the supermarkets’ pockets with gold when budgets across the public sector are being cut and it is cutting the alcohol treatment budget. People in Scotland just do not understand that: it does not make sense.
In closing, I observe that the cabinet secretary’s closing speech at stage 1 was very big on rhetoric but quite short on detail, which is surprising. I expect more of the same as the debate carries on, but I gently suggest that she change her tone—[Interruption.] I think that she should, because in her last speech she said that I was putting a blanket over my head on the issue, in an apparently witty reference to the lack of blankets in our hospitals, although she denied that at the time. That spectacularly backfired, so a bit of caution is required.
Tackling our relationship with alcohol is a serious issue. We have come forward with a serious suggestion to improve the bill and empower public services in tackling alcohol abuse in Scotland. There is time for the cabinet secretary to have a unified chamber, but she is in danger of losing it when she decides to fill the pockets—
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02967, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill. I call on Nicola...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I wish to advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Alcohol (M...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
If Jackie Baillie wants to comment on Diane Abbott’s support for the Scottish Government, I will be delighted to take an intervention.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I thank the cabinet secretary for her generosity. First it was the First Minister, and now the Deputy First Minister is following Diane Abbott. I am delighte...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
What Jackie Baillie does not tell members is that, before saying that, Yvette Cooper said that she supported minimum pricing. That is the position of Yvette ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, welcome the opportunity to participate in the stage 3 debate on minimum pricing, and I too record my thanks to all involved.Throughout the passage of...
Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)
Ind
Could the member briefly examine whether that figure of 25 per cent is a mean figure across the country? I doubt that it is. I am sure that there are areas o...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I think that the figure varies by income, which I think is the point that the member is making. I am sure that people will look forward to drinking more with...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I am afraid that the member is running out of time.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
—of large supermarkets at the expense of hard-working public services.I move amendment S4M-02967.1, to insert at end:“but, in so doing, strongly believes tha...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Today is a significant day. Alcohol minimum unit pricing has been the centre of debate in the current session and the previous session of Parliament, almost ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be of four minutes.16:06
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
The arguments against minimum pricing on the basis of potential supermarket profits or increased revenues have been well and truly exposed this afternoon as ...
Margo MacDonald
Ind
I wonder if the member would like to answer a question for me. What does he see as the result of this measure? Does he see everyone drinking a little less or...
Bob Doris
SNP
It is not how I see it; it is what the evidence points to, which is that the most harmful drinkers will be most affected by these measures. That is what the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Yes.
Bob Doris
SNP
Oh dear. I will be brief.The health benefits of minimum pricing differ according to which group we are talking about. It is said that minimum pricing will ha...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful to be able to speak in the debate, given that I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee.I want to look at the bill in a slightly diff...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank Jackie Baillie for covering most of the ground on the thinking behind Labour’s approach to the bill. Equally, I thank Sandra White and Bob Doris, who...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The member has no time. He has precisely 10 seconds left.
Graeme Pearson
Lab
I support the amendment in Jackie Baillie’s name.16:19
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
I have to say that I do not agree with the cabinet secretary because I do not think that Labour’s pitiful opposition to the bill is a fig leaf so much as it ...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
I thank Nicola Sturgeon for pioneering the bill. It is pioneering legislation and she is out there in front, proposing a measure that a lot of people will no...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. Alcohol minimum pricing is the latest step to change the dri...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green)
Green
I am very pleased that we are introducing minimum pricing of alcohol. The Scottish Greens have supported the bill in this session and we supported the simila...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate that we have had, I welcome the bill and I welcome the fact that, at 5 o’clock tonight, it will become the law of Scotland. I also welco...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
This has been a short but slightly depressing debate in the sense that, even at this late stage, the argument about the bill has continued even though, after...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In 2001, as the Deputy Minister for Justice, I recognised that Scotland had a growing problem with alcohol and that we were well into the third wave in our h...