Committee
Audit Committee, 09 Nov 2004
09 Nov 2004 · S2 · Audit Committee
Item of business
“Maintaining Scotland's roads”
Mr Black:
Watch on SPTV
In my previous incarnation—I was chief executive of Tayside Regional Council for five years—I knew something about this issue, which is why I was pleased to find that the new councils decided to continue with Tayside Contracts, the DLO that services Angus, Dundee and Perth. Life after reorganisation has been very much based on the value-for-money studies that we are discussing and, as John Lincoln has pointed out, DLOs such as Tayside Contracts had a critical mass to invest in the necessary capital equipment and specialist training to be able to compete effectively for some big contracts such as trunk roads work. When we analysed the issue, we found that such an approach helped to ensure competitive pricing in the marketplace. Tayside Contracts' tenders were always competitive. The general message that emerges is that councils should be encouraged to think about co-operating more extensively in such areas.I should also remind members about appendix 6 on page 39, which shows that, as George Lyon indicated, there is quite a wide variation in the cost of common road maintenance items among councils. A series of charts also illustrates how the cost of mechanical sweeping, gully emptying, street lighting maintenance and street lighting energy varies among councils. As far as best value is concerned, we would urge councils seriously to consider that information when forward planning their services.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Con
Item 3 is a briefing from the Auditor General and his team on the recent report "Maintaining Scotland's roads".
Mr Robert Black (Auditor General for Scotland):
We all know that there is a huge amount of public interest in the condition of Scottish roads, with frequent media reports about potholes and the like, conge...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
The key messages report states that councils have reported that clearing the maintenance backlog would cost"around £1.5 billion, including £900 million for r...
David Pia (Audit Scotland):
The Executive has not pronounced on the councils' estimates, which are, in essence, built up from the estimates of road engineers. We qualify our statement b...
George Lyon:
LD
Exhibit 9 on page 15 of the report contains information on the proportion of councils' road maintenance revenue budgets that is devoted to structural mainten...
Mr Black:
David Pia will answer the question on the councils that did not provide a breakdown of revenue expenditure.George Lyon may find exhibit 10 on page 17 useful....
David Pia:
On the detailed question, John Lincoln may be in a better position to answer.
George Lyon:
LD
I am trying to get some correlation between exhibits 3, 7 and 9. The reader cannot read through cause and impact. What is the background to this?
John Lincoln (Audit Scotland):
In relation to exhibit 9, you would need to ask the councils that could not respond why they could not respond. We asked for the information on several occas...
George Lyon:
LD
You make the point that most of the budgets are based on historical spend. Surely, the figures give you an indication of what spend was historically.
John Lincoln:
We were not able to get the specific information going back that far. A lot of it pre-dates the reorganisation of local government.
George Lyon:
LD
But you argue that the budget is built on historical spend. The point that I am trying to make is that, although this is a snapshot of one year, it should gi...
John Lincoln:
We did the correlations to try to look at that; however, there are issues about what the state of the roads was in the first place. For example, some council...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
The report highlights an extraordinary diversity of practice among the councils. At paragraph 22, the report states:"The cost of bringing the road network up...
David Pia:
There is no such formula. Our best estimate is that it would certainly take 10 years' investment in structural maintenance, which would have to be given prio...
John Lincoln:
One of the report's recommendations is that councils should get together to produce an agreed methodology to calculate the backlog of work. All 32 councils h...
Robin Harper:
Green
I was focusing not on calculating the costs of the backlog, but on how much more councils will have to spend on other maintenance of roads as a consequence o...
Caroline Gardner (Audit Scotland):
The best answer that we can give to your questions is that there would need to be calculations on a council-by-council basis. However, a strong example is gi...
Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):
Lab
I apologise for missing the earlier part of the meeting.I have three questions, the first of which is about levels of investment. What comparative data are a...
Mr Black:
I will try to answer the first two questions and will ask my colleagues to answer the third question, on technical issues and management. At paragraph 31 of ...
David Pia:
We suggest that councils need to improve their information and asset management systems and we refer to the Scottish road maintenance condition survey, which...
John Lincoln:
One of the advantages of the technology is that if we have good information on the condition of the roads and have a good idea of the traffic, we can have a ...
Mr Black:
On page 34 of "Maintaining Scotland's roads", in appendix 3, we have included a description of some of the technical methods of assessing road condition, whi...
George Lyon:
LD
Exhibit 14 on page 22 shows that there is huge variation in the cost of reconstruction among councils, from Dumfries and Galloway Council at £23 per square m...
John Lincoln:
I imagine that you would need to talk to the councils about that matter. I know that some councils cannot provide that information because they have not unde...
George Lyon:
LD
We are talking about a difference of more than £60 per square metre. If the councils that I mentioned crossed into Dumfries and Galloway and purchased the wo...
John Lincoln:
Many councils already contract out most major reconstruction, resurfacing or structural maintenance work because they do not have such economies of scale. If...
Mr Black:
In my previous incarnation—I was chief executive of Tayside Regional Council for five years—I knew something about this issue, which is why I was pleased to ...
George Lyon:
LD
But you cannot explain what underpins those variations.
Mr Black:
No. This study captured data that we thought that we could present in this reasonably reliable form. It is up to councils to analyse that information to find...