Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 14 June 2012
14 Jun 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Women’s Representation (Public Sector Boards)
I am very tight for time. Will the member forgive me if I try to use my five minutes as best I can?
Although I certainly broadly sympathise with the thrust of what Jenny Marra is seeking to do, my experience suggests that both men and women can provide the necessary skills for any job and sex does not somehow or other eliminate that. In my experience, where women emerge in fora that have been traditionally male dominated—whether a university court, a board of directors, a body of trustees, or even leading a political party, all of which I have done—they bring their own unique characteristics to bear.
I say to Jenny Marra that in my experience in dealing with David Cameron, I could not have found a more enthusiastic advocate for promoting the cause of women in politics. I accept that I was perhaps the first political auntie he had ever acquired and that that might have been a reason for his kind treatment.
Jenny Marra mentioned Norway. Although it has made progress, that success—and I accept that it has been a success to some extent—has not altered the fundamentals of how women progress through organisations. Non-executive director appointments account for most of the increase in representation. Quotas have not tackled the issue of women coming through their own organisation’s pipeline, because apparently in Norway women still make up only 2 per cent of chief executive officers and 10 per cent of executive committee members. It seems that the increase in the number of women board members was partly achieved by an increase in board size, rather than replacing significant numbers of existing members. That leaves me uneasy.
I want—as I think every woman in the Parliament wants—Scotland to be a place where women and men can succeed, but that has to be on the basis of skill and talent. I want that to happen in a positive, organic and incremental fashion. From my experience, I think that it can happen. That is why I am unable to support quotas, which Jenny Marra seeks to impose. However, I thank her for bringing the debate, which I welcome. What matters is that the issue does not now come off the radar screen.
Although I certainly broadly sympathise with the thrust of what Jenny Marra is seeking to do, my experience suggests that both men and women can provide the necessary skills for any job and sex does not somehow or other eliminate that. In my experience, where women emerge in fora that have been traditionally male dominated—whether a university court, a board of directors, a body of trustees, or even leading a political party, all of which I have done—they bring their own unique characteristics to bear.
I say to Jenny Marra that in my experience in dealing with David Cameron, I could not have found a more enthusiastic advocate for promoting the cause of women in politics. I accept that I was perhaps the first political auntie he had ever acquired and that that might have been a reason for his kind treatment.
Jenny Marra mentioned Norway. Although it has made progress, that success—and I accept that it has been a success to some extent—has not altered the fundamentals of how women progress through organisations. Non-executive director appointments account for most of the increase in representation. Quotas have not tackled the issue of women coming through their own organisation’s pipeline, because apparently in Norway women still make up only 2 per cent of chief executive officers and 10 per cent of executive committee members. It seems that the increase in the number of women board members was partly achieved by an increase in board size, rather than replacing significant numbers of existing members. That leaves me uneasy.
I want—as I think every woman in the Parliament wants—Scotland to be a place where women and men can succeed, but that has to be on the basis of skill and talent. I want that to happen in a positive, organic and incremental fashion. From my experience, I think that it can happen. That is why I am unable to support quotas, which Jenny Marra seeks to impose. However, I thank her for bringing the debate, which I welcome. What matters is that the issue does not now come off the radar screen.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03289, in the name of Jenny Marra, on women’s representation.09:15
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am delighted to be able to open a debate on equality in the Scottish Parliament in this, the United Nations year of empowering women. I note that this appe...
Humza Yousaf (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
Why, in the 13 years when it was in power, did the Labour Government not bring in a 40 per cent quota for public sector bodies?
Jenny Marra
Lab
We have always supported equal representation in our party and it is something that we will look towards in the future. We have been out of power for quite a...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jenny Marra
Lab
No, thank you. No amount of application information to highly skilled and qualified women through Government DVDs, brochures and e-mailed vacancies are chang...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Can the member indicate how the appointments to the current police boards are made? My understanding is that the majority of the appointments come from local...
Jenny Marra
Lab
I think that the member will find, if he looks at gender representation among councillors in Scotland, that Labour has a much better record of electing women...
Christine Grahame
SNP
The member is concerned about gender balance and interventions. However, does she agree that the Justice Committee took the view that it is quality on the bo...
Jenny Marra
Lab
If the member had been listening to my speech, she would have found that I have already made the case that a quota enforces the idea of a meritocracy and tha...
The Minister for Commonwealth Games and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Scottish Government in this timely debate. I say that it is timely because, as every member ...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I find it very sad that the minister cannot recognise that we have passion for equality. I wish that her party could show the same passion for the issue.
Shona Robison
SNP
A person can be passionate about an issue without having to resort to the petty party-political attacks that we saw Jenny Marra making. If Jenny Marra and th...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Shona Robison
SNP
In a minute.There has been good progress in relation to public appointments over the years, but it is not enough. Our public bodies need board members who re...
Neil Findlay
Lab
The minister’s party regularly points to Scandinavia and to the Norwegian and Finnish Governments. Are those Governments patronising, too?
Shona Robison
SNP
I did not say that. Perhaps the member should have listened. It is refreshing that the Labour Party has stopped denigrating small independent countries and h...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Does the minister acknowledge that this is perhaps the first time that a quota has been proposed in this context? She says that there is no consensus out the...
Shona Robison
SNP
I could not agree more with the member. That is the tone that she should have taken from the start of the debate, because I am happy to work with her and oth...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I shall try not to be provocative or patronising and I shall do my level best to be passionate. I thank Jenny Marra for bringing this important issue to the ...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Annabel Goldie
Con
I am very tight for time. Will the member forgive me if I try to use my five minutes as best I can?Although I certainly broadly sympathise with the thrust of...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We now move to open debate. Time is extremely tight and the Presiding Officers will struggle to get into the debate everybody who wants to speak, so we will ...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate and agree that the lack of women’s representation at the highest level of public life—and in private industry—is a concern that everyone...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Will the member give way?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The member does not have time.
Clare Adamson
SNP
I am in my last few minutes. A European Commission report, “Women in economic decision-making in the EU”, looks at improved company performance evidenced by ...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. We have had several interesting speeches, particularly from Jenny Marra, who mentioned the international as...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I agreed with much of what John Park said, but Kezia Dugdale and Jenny Marra have quality—they are here not because they are women, but because they are good...
John Park
Lab
May I clarify my point?