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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 March 2012

29 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunal System
In its way, the debate—enjoined as it is to the Government’s consultation paper on a new tribunal system for Scotland, as announced by the minister on March 23—will, I opine, help to redefine significant elements and redraw the geography of common and fair justice in Scotland.

Many members have mentioned the Philip review. As the chairman, Lord Philip, said in his foreword to the 2008 report,

“Tribunals are now a vital part of Scotland’s justice system”.

When Sir Andrew Leggatt produced his report, “Tribunals for Users: One System, One Service”, in 2001, which had a much more significant impact on England and Wales, it did not—and perhaps could not—address all the complications of subsidiary justice in our devolved country, because of the complications involving tribunals that dealt with reserved matters, those that dealt with devolved subjects pre-1999 and those that dealt with devolved matters post-1999. Having sat on the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee as it has wrestled with the Land Registration (Scotland) Bill, I know that the issue of land tribunals has come quite significantly into play.

Although the Leggatt report was sound, it did not address Scotland’s needs. The Philip report quite rightly indicated that the system was fragmented, complex, insufficiently independent and lacking in quality and it pointed out that tribunals seemed to have passed some inconsistent or erroneous judgments.

It is clear that we are talking about something that is an integral part of our judicial system—a devolved and independent system that presides over—as the minister indicated and which Christine Grahame honestly learned—80,000 cases and involves more than 40 tribunals in Scotland. It is not objective or independent and is possibly—perhaps inevitably—unfair.

I welcome the fact that, since the Scottish Tribunals Service was launched in 2010, it has supported six tribunals. Of course, we have much more to do to square that particular circle. In a modern just Scotland, there has to be a system that secures best practice and avoids duplication—a system that is cost effective, secure, consistent, cohesive, which allows ease of communication and which makes justice work quickly, in the interests of coming to an agreement and avoiding people having to have recourse to expensive court action. It is better to have a quicker and less costly way to solve disputes. An efficient and all-embracing tribunals service is the way to do that.

I welcome the Government’s consultation and look forward to the report that will be produced once the consultation closes on 15 June. The measures are overdue, which is why I suggest that the debate and the consultation sequitors will redefine the boundaries of fairness and justice in Scotland.

Although we must retain the benefits and specialisms in law, I suggest that there must be an increasing and transparent role for more legal arbitration on disputes. We require to develop new rules. I welcome the possibility—indeed, the probability—of a new process of dispute resolution at a point not too far in the future. I know that that is a matter that will not be kicked into the long grass by the minister.

I understand that some tribunals are funded by sponsoring departments in the UK Government and elsewhere. That is not independent. I also understand that members of reserved tribunals are appointed by a judicial appointments procedure and others go through a public appointments system. That is not independent either. We need to ensure that all tribunal members are appointed appropriately and are suitably trained to ensure and, indeed, to secure objectivity and impartiality in their decision making. I welcome also the Government’s intention to seek independent advice to ensure that tribunal members are appropriately remunerated.

The objective is that there will be no duplication of training, administration or information technology systems across devolved tribunals. Simples.

As the paper suggests, we need a two-tier tribunals service that will deal with all matters—reserved and devolved—to handle dispute resolution, with a subject-based first tier that makes all decisions and is buttressed by an upper tier to which appeals can be referred. I hope that that upper tier would be used infrequently.

A smart and just Scotland needs to fit in place this piece of our national jigsaw in order to deliver openness, efficiency, responsiveness, consistency and fairness—our sense of fairness.



There will, of course, be Jeremiahs who will question, for example, the nearly £12 million to be spent on tribunals in the coming year, but that is another instance of sound preventative spend. If we achieve what we set out to achieve, I ask them this: what price fair, effective and speedy dispute resolution?

I support the motion.

16:05

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02521, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the consultation on the new tribunal system in Scotland.14:58
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham) SNP
Today’s debate focuses on tribunal reform in Scotland and highlights our proposals for modernising how tribunals operate.Tribunals are a valued and distincti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I draw members’ attention to the fact that we have quite a bit of time in hand in the debate, so we will be generous with time and will seek interventions.15:10
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the minister for her considered introduction to the topic and welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on an important issue.Tribunals are a f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I now call David McLetchie. Mr McLetchie, you may have a very generous six minutes.15:16
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con) Con
Oh, right! Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Would that you were always in a position to be so generous. We know that you are in spirit, even if you ar...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
What was all that about?
David McLetchie Con
That is called padding, Ms Grahame. Laughter.I welcome the opportunity to speak slowly on this topic, following the launch of the Scottish Government’s consu...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
The member might be interested to know that there is a conversation between us in Scotland and the Ministry of Justice south of the border about the possible...
David McLetchie Con
I thank the minister for that assurance. That is entirely welcome and I wish her well in those discussions.The need for reform of the tribunal system has bee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
A valiant effort, Mr McLetchie.Before we proceed to the open debate, I am pleased to inform members that we have been joined in the public gallery by His Exc...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
This is a potentially interesting subject for someone who happens to be one of the many users of the tribunals service. I draw members’ attention to the mini...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the minister on two levels. First, I thank her for her fair presentation of the proposal that is set out in the consultation document on a new tribun...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
Presiding Officer, my heart sank when you said that we have extra time. We always get extra time when we do not have a lot to say.I commend David McLetchie w...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I refer members to my registered interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. I am a relative newcomer ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
When the proposal to set up the Scottish Tribunals Service was debated in September 2010—there was the same glamour then as there has been in the debate so f...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
In its way, the debate—enjoined as it is to the Government’s consultation paper on a new tribunal system for Scotland, as announced by the minister on March ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I would like to take us back a few years and to a little bit of research into the history of the situation. Members have referred to Sir Oliver Franks’s repo...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
There will be the possibility of sheriffs, sheriff principals and other very expert individuals adjudicating at that level. We are talking about a high level...
Nigel Don SNP
I am grateful for that clarification.It has occurred to me that the upper-tier tribunal will set precedent. It will be staffed by senior people and it will m...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lab
It has been an entertaining debate. We have had the glamour of David McLetchie, the dry humour of Christine Grahame and a history lesson from Nigel Don. For ...
John Finnie SNP
The member mentions the stress that is associated with attendance at a tribunal. Does he agree that everything should be done to resolve issues through early...
James Kelly Lab
I thank the member for his intervention and I agree with what he says. As he said in his speech, alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution before the tri...
Christine Grahame SNP
I am trying to help the member out. Does he agree that the websites of some of the tribunals are quite helpful? Does he also agree that we should applaud the...
James Kelly Lab
I thank Christine Grahame very much indeed.We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 us...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
That is perfectly acceptable, Mr Kelly. I know that you have really important points to make and that the members in the chamber would love to hear them.
James Kelly Lab
Yes. I can see that members are looking very attentive, particularly those on the front benches, who I am sure are willing me on.The independence of the trib...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) SNP
I think that we should give a vote of thanks to Mr Kelly for managing to speak for eight minutes.I welcome the broad agreement across the chamber on this iss...
Roderick Campbell SNP
So far, Colin Keir has not mentioned the tribunal judiciary. Does he agree that it is appropriate that the Scottish ministers determine their remuneration on...
Colin Keir SNP
There is every possibility that I will agree with that statement.The tribunal system in Scotland requires to be changed. As we have heard, there have been va...