Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 29 March 2012
29 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunal System
I thank the minister for that assurance. That is entirely welcome and I wish her well in those discussions.
The need for reform of the tribunal system has been under discussion in the UK as a whole for more than 10 years. In 2001, a review was conducted for England and Wales by Sir Andrew Leggatt, which concluded that the tribunal system had been created in
“an almost entirely haphazard way”—
he was not wrong about that—and that it was
“exceedingly complicated”.
Here in Scotland, we had the 2008 report of the committee that was chaired by Lord Philips, “Options for the Future Administration and Supervision of Tribunals in Scotland”. It came to the similar conclusion that the system was
“extremely complex and fragmented”
and that it did not
“meet the key principles of independence and coherence”.
That complexity is not in the best interests of the users of tribunals, nor does the duplication in administration, staff training, information technology and other functions represent value for money for the taxpayers who fund the system.
Although the Government has taken some limited steps to simplify the system, most notably by bringing six of the devolved tribunals under the administration of the Scottish Tribunals Service, it is fair to say that progress has been slow. Part 1 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 brought the vast majority of tribunal cases in Scotland that deal with reserved matters into a single coherent administrative and judicial structure with support provided by HM Courts and Tribunals Service. Only in December 2010 were some devolved tribunals given comparable support.
I turn to the Scottish Government’s proposals in its recently published consultation document. I support the general thrust of the proposals, which include the creation of a new two-tier structure. All the tribunals in the new system will have the same leadership and administration. The first-tier tribunals will be organised into chambers in which tribunals on similar topics can be grouped together.
However, since the four tribunals that have been singled out for initial inclusion in the new system—the Additional Support Needs Tribunals for Scotland, the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland, the Lands Tribunal for Scotland and the Private Rented Housing Panel—all deal with quite discrete subjects, it seems that the grouping idea is one for another day and, at this stage, it is more apparent than real. That is why we would like to know a bit more from the minister about the pace of change and integration, and the Government’s intentions in that respect.
With that, Presiding Officer, I am happy to conclude my opening remarks.
The need for reform of the tribunal system has been under discussion in the UK as a whole for more than 10 years. In 2001, a review was conducted for England and Wales by Sir Andrew Leggatt, which concluded that the tribunal system had been created in
“an almost entirely haphazard way”—
he was not wrong about that—and that it was
“exceedingly complicated”.
Here in Scotland, we had the 2008 report of the committee that was chaired by Lord Philips, “Options for the Future Administration and Supervision of Tribunals in Scotland”. It came to the similar conclusion that the system was
“extremely complex and fragmented”
and that it did not
“meet the key principles of independence and coherence”.
That complexity is not in the best interests of the users of tribunals, nor does the duplication in administration, staff training, information technology and other functions represent value for money for the taxpayers who fund the system.
Although the Government has taken some limited steps to simplify the system, most notably by bringing six of the devolved tribunals under the administration of the Scottish Tribunals Service, it is fair to say that progress has been slow. Part 1 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 brought the vast majority of tribunal cases in Scotland that deal with reserved matters into a single coherent administrative and judicial structure with support provided by HM Courts and Tribunals Service. Only in December 2010 were some devolved tribunals given comparable support.
I turn to the Scottish Government’s proposals in its recently published consultation document. I support the general thrust of the proposals, which include the creation of a new two-tier structure. All the tribunals in the new system will have the same leadership and administration. The first-tier tribunals will be organised into chambers in which tribunals on similar topics can be grouped together.
However, since the four tribunals that have been singled out for initial inclusion in the new system—the Additional Support Needs Tribunals for Scotland, the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland, the Lands Tribunal for Scotland and the Private Rented Housing Panel—all deal with quite discrete subjects, it seems that the grouping idea is one for another day and, at this stage, it is more apparent than real. That is why we would like to know a bit more from the minister about the pace of change and integration, and the Government’s intentions in that respect.
With that, Presiding Officer, I am happy to conclude my opening remarks.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02521, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the consultation on the new tribunal system in Scotland.14:58
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)
SNP
Today’s debate focuses on tribunal reform in Scotland and highlights our proposals for modernising how tribunals operate.Tribunals are a valued and distincti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I draw members’ attention to the fact that we have quite a bit of time in hand in the debate, so we will be generous with time and will seek interventions.15:10
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the minister for her considered introduction to the topic and welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on an important issue.Tribunals are a f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
I now call David McLetchie. Mr McLetchie, you may have a very generous six minutes.15:16
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Oh, right! Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Would that you were always in a position to be so generous. We know that you are in spirit, even if you ar...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
What was all that about?
David McLetchie
Con
That is called padding, Ms Grahame. Laughter.I welcome the opportunity to speak slowly on this topic, following the launch of the Scottish Government’s consu...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
The member might be interested to know that there is a conversation between us in Scotland and the Ministry of Justice south of the border about the possible...
David McLetchie
Con
I thank the minister for that assurance. That is entirely welcome and I wish her well in those discussions.The need for reform of the tribunal system has bee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
A valiant effort, Mr McLetchie.Before we proceed to the open debate, I am pleased to inform members that we have been joined in the public gallery by His Exc...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
This is a potentially interesting subject for someone who happens to be one of the many users of the tribunals service. I draw members’ attention to the mini...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the minister on two levels. First, I thank her for her fair presentation of the proposal that is set out in the consultation document on a new tribun...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, my heart sank when you said that we have extra time. We always get extra time when we do not have a lot to say.I commend David McLetchie w...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I refer members to my registered interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. I am a relative newcomer ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
When the proposal to set up the Scottish Tribunals Service was debated in September 2010—there was the same glamour then as there has been in the debate so f...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
In its way, the debate—enjoined as it is to the Government’s consultation paper on a new tribunal system for Scotland, as announced by the minister on March ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
SNP
I would like to take us back a few years and to a little bit of research into the history of the situation. Members have referred to Sir Oliver Franks’s repo...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
There will be the possibility of sheriffs, sheriff principals and other very expert individuals adjudicating at that level. We are talking about a high level...
Nigel Don
SNP
I am grateful for that clarification.It has occurred to me that the upper-tier tribunal will set precedent. It will be staffed by senior people and it will m...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
It has been an entertaining debate. We have had the glamour of David McLetchie, the dry humour of Christine Grahame and a history lesson from Nigel Don. For ...
John Finnie
SNP
The member mentions the stress that is associated with attendance at a tribunal. Does he agree that everything should be done to resolve issues through early...
James Kelly
Lab
I thank the member for his intervention and I agree with what he says. As he said in his speech, alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution before the tri...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am trying to help the member out. Does he agree that the websites of some of the tribunals are quite helpful? Does he also agree that we should applaud the...
James Kelly
Lab
I thank Christine Grahame very much indeed.We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 us...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
That is perfectly acceptable, Mr Kelly. I know that you have really important points to make and that the members in the chamber would love to hear them.
James Kelly
Lab
Yes. I can see that members are looking very attentive, particularly those on the front benches, who I am sure are willing me on.The independence of the trib...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I think that we should give a vote of thanks to Mr Kelly for managing to speak for eight minutes.I welcome the broad agreement across the chamber on this iss...
Roderick Campbell
SNP
So far, Colin Keir has not mentioned the tribunal judiciary. Does he agree that it is appropriate that the Scottish ministers determine their remuneration on...
Colin Keir
SNP
There is every possibility that I will agree with that statement.The tribunal system in Scotland requires to be changed. As we have heard, there have been va...