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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 29 March 2012

29 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunal System
That is called padding, Ms Grahame. [Laughter.]

I welcome the opportunity to speak slowly on this topic, following the launch of the Scottish Government’s consultation on a new tribunal system. Although a debate on the future of tribunals might not be among the most glamorous ever witnessed in the chamber—and no one can ever accuse me of adding a touch of glamour to any of the Parliament’s proceedings—the topic is, of course, important. As the minister and Jenny Marra have rightly indicated, tribunals are an important part of our civil justice system. In some instances, a tribunal is a forum for citizens to challenge decisions that are made by public bodies on entitlements to benefits and services and, because of that, it is imperative that they are independent of Government and the public organisations on whose decisions they adjudicate.

In other cases—and we have heard about the variety of tribunals in the judicial landscape—they are a forum for the resolution of private disputes; in fact, that is the function of the Lands Tribunal for Scotland and the Private Rented Housing Panel. Moreover, tribunals deal with certain reserved areas such as employment issues and disputes between employers and employee. They also offer an alternative—and less formal and less costly—dispute resolution mechanism to our courts; indeed, tribunals in Scotland deal with more than 80,000 cases annually. Without them, the individuals who use them would either lose an entire avenue of redress or be forced to take their grievances to an already overstretched court system.

The principle of tribunals as a forum of redress is an ancient one. Roman tribunes, from which the word “tribunal” originates, were elected to protect the rights of the proletariat against the arbitrary acts of the Government. Indeed, the parliamentary Labour Party at Westminster used to have an influential Tribune group until it discovered that the arbitrary acts the group was complaining about were those of its own Government.

As we know, the tribunal system grew on an ad hoc basis through the 20th century. The minister was quite right to refer to the important landmark that was the Franks report of 1957, which resulted in a move from the perception of tribunals as purely executive or administrative agencies to their being put on a judicial footing with the principles of openness, fairness and impartiality as the governing foundation for their work, about which we have already heard.

In Scotland, we have a distinction between the tribunals that deal with devolved matters and are therefore the Scottish Government’s responsibility and those that deal with reserved functions. As the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has previously acknowledged, users of a tribunal are unlikely to be concerned about, to care less about or even to be aware of whether a tribunal deals with a devolved or a reserved matter. The overall duty that we have is to ensure that tribunals for which the Scottish Government and we in the Scottish Parliament are responsible work efficiently and where appropriate, to collaborate with the United Kingdom Government on the tribunals for which it is responsible, but which have jurisdiction here.

It is interesting to note that, although 16 tribunals are fully devolved relative to their subject matter and are therefore open for inclusion in the new tribunal system that the minister has outlined and which is the subject of the consultation, the majority of tribunals by reference to case load operate in relation to reserved matters. Some of them function as part of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, while others operate on a free-standing basis.

It is not at all clear from the Government’s consultation document—particularly from paragraph 1.5—whether the Scottish Government’s intention is to seek a full-scale integration of tribunals across the present devolved-reserved divide or whether that is seen as a consequence of further constitutional change and thus a subject to be deferred for another day.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02521, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the consultation on the new tribunal system in Scotland.14:58
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham) SNP
Today’s debate focuses on tribunal reform in Scotland and highlights our proposals for modernising how tribunals operate.Tribunals are a valued and distincti...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I draw members’ attention to the fact that we have quite a bit of time in hand in the debate, so we will be generous with time and will seek interventions.15:10
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the minister for her considered introduction to the topic and welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on an important issue.Tribunals are a f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I now call David McLetchie. Mr McLetchie, you may have a very generous six minutes.15:16
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con) Con
Oh, right! Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Would that you were always in a position to be so generous. We know that you are in spirit, even if you ar...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
What was all that about?
David McLetchie Con
That is called padding, Ms Grahame. Laughter.I welcome the opportunity to speak slowly on this topic, following the launch of the Scottish Government’s consu...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
The member might be interested to know that there is a conversation between us in Scotland and the Ministry of Justice south of the border about the possible...
David McLetchie Con
I thank the minister for that assurance. That is entirely welcome and I wish her well in those discussions.The need for reform of the tribunal system has bee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
A valiant effort, Mr McLetchie.Before we proceed to the open debate, I am pleased to inform members that we have been joined in the public gallery by His Exc...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
This is a potentially interesting subject for someone who happens to be one of the many users of the tribunals service. I draw members’ attention to the mini...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the minister on two levels. First, I thank her for her fair presentation of the proposal that is set out in the consultation document on a new tribun...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
Presiding Officer, my heart sank when you said that we have extra time. We always get extra time when we do not have a lot to say.I commend David McLetchie w...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I refer members to my registered interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate. I am a relative newcomer ...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
When the proposal to set up the Scottish Tribunals Service was debated in September 2010—there was the same glamour then as there has been in the debate so f...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
In its way, the debate—enjoined as it is to the Government’s consultation paper on a new tribunal system for Scotland, as announced by the minister on March ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I would like to take us back a few years and to a little bit of research into the history of the situation. Members have referred to Sir Oliver Franks’s repo...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
There will be the possibility of sheriffs, sheriff principals and other very expert individuals adjudicating at that level. We are talking about a high level...
Nigel Don SNP
I am grateful for that clarification.It has occurred to me that the upper-tier tribunal will set precedent. It will be staffed by senior people and it will m...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lab
It has been an entertaining debate. We have had the glamour of David McLetchie, the dry humour of Christine Grahame and a history lesson from Nigel Don. For ...
John Finnie SNP
The member mentions the stress that is associated with attendance at a tribunal. Does he agree that everything should be done to resolve issues through early...
James Kelly Lab
I thank the member for his intervention and I agree with what he says. As he said in his speech, alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution before the tri...
Christine Grahame SNP
I am trying to help the member out. Does he agree that the websites of some of the tribunals are quite helpful? Does he also agree that we should applaud the...
James Kelly Lab
I thank Christine Grahame very much indeed.We all use information technology in our workplaces, but the issue is getting the information out to the 80,000 us...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
That is perfectly acceptable, Mr Kelly. I know that you have really important points to make and that the members in the chamber would love to hear them.
James Kelly Lab
Yes. I can see that members are looking very attentive, particularly those on the front benches, who I am sure are willing me on.The independence of the trib...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) SNP
I think that we should give a vote of thanks to Mr Kelly for managing to speak for eight minutes.I welcome the broad agreement across the chamber on this iss...
Roderick Campbell SNP
So far, Colin Keir has not mentioned the tribunal judiciary. Does he agree that it is appropriate that the Scottish ministers determine their remuneration on...
Colin Keir SNP
There is every possibility that I will agree with that statement.The tribunal system in Scotland requires to be changed. As we have heard, there have been va...