Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 May 2012
17 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Waiting Times
Dear, dear. It is difficult not to be depressed by the two opening speeches—not that there were not things within them that were of interest or true. The next election is in 2016 and we are having the debate only days after the publication of one of the most serious and damning reports that I have seen. If Jackie Baillie and Nicola Sturgeon want to go toe to toe, we will set up a boxing ring in the garden lobby and they can do so. Frankly, the public outside do not want to know what the previous Labour Government did or did not do, and they do not particularly want to know whether Nicola Sturgeon has done this, that or the next thing.
The failure that is identified in the report lies with Lothian NHS Board, and the report is one of the most damning indictments that I have seen. The concern of everybody in the chamber and beyond is about not only what was going on in Lothian NHS Board, but whether there is any suggestion that the practice could be more widespread and whether we should have concerns elsewhere. I accept that both sides believe that to be the case, but that should be the point around which the debate is centred and on which we are united. We are not having a hustings contest for last year’s election.
The one bright spot in all this is the clear evidence that staff at every level of Lothian NHS Board have a sincere appreciation of the job that they are doing and a profound commitment to it. Tribute has been paid to those staff, and anybody who has been involved in investigating any of this has given them nothing but credit for their effort and for the job that they have done.
The question is whether the practice is isolated or whether there are signs of concern elsewhere, beyond the scope of the report. I therefore welcome what the cabinet secretary has done in giving Audit Scotland a remit to look at other boards. Are there signs that, over time, such concerns have arisen? There are ways in which we could look at that to see whether signs have been emerging. The compensation that boards have paid has gone up from £2.7 million in 1999 to £26 million in 2009. When we have talked about compensation in the past, I have asked whether there has been a chain of accountability from that compensation back to the problem that was at its source or whether it has been used as a convenient way simply to park the issue and move on. That issue arose during the recent scandal in Ayrshire and Arran NHS Board, when it was clear that the effort all the time was to present, on behalf of the management, the best possible case without necessarily learning any lessons.
The failure that is identified in the report lies with Lothian NHS Board, and the report is one of the most damning indictments that I have seen. The concern of everybody in the chamber and beyond is about not only what was going on in Lothian NHS Board, but whether there is any suggestion that the practice could be more widespread and whether we should have concerns elsewhere. I accept that both sides believe that to be the case, but that should be the point around which the debate is centred and on which we are united. We are not having a hustings contest for last year’s election.
The one bright spot in all this is the clear evidence that staff at every level of Lothian NHS Board have a sincere appreciation of the job that they are doing and a profound commitment to it. Tribute has been paid to those staff, and anybody who has been involved in investigating any of this has given them nothing but credit for their effort and for the job that they have done.
The question is whether the practice is isolated or whether there are signs of concern elsewhere, beyond the scope of the report. I therefore welcome what the cabinet secretary has done in giving Audit Scotland a remit to look at other boards. Are there signs that, over time, such concerns have arisen? There are ways in which we could look at that to see whether signs have been emerging. The compensation that boards have paid has gone up from £2.7 million in 1999 to £26 million in 2009. When we have talked about compensation in the past, I have asked whether there has been a chain of accountability from that compensation back to the problem that was at its source or whether it has been used as a convenient way simply to park the issue and move on. That issue arose during the recent scandal in Ayrshire and Arran NHS Board, when it was clear that the effort all the time was to present, on behalf of the management, the best possible case without necessarily learning any lessons.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02905, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on health.
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether you can help me and other concerned members.Two weeks ago tomorrow, the appalling report into the ma...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you. The business that is brought to Parliament is a matter for the Parliamentary Bureau, as you are aware. Government business is brought to the chamb...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to debate waiting times. We all know that if someone is ill, it can be an extremely worrying time. Getting a diagnosis and then get...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
In a minute.I welcome the fact that the figures are now going down, but if we are honest, that has happened only since the problem at NHS Lothian was exposed...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
I have a genuine and very simple point, which I make in the interests of accuracy. Jackie Baillie just said something that I am sure she will concede was ina...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I think that the cabinet secretary is dancing on the head of a pin. Patients in those circumstances do not have a waiting time guarantee. This is far too imp...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy (Nicola Sturgeon)
SNP
I welcome the debate. I know how important waiting times are to the public and I am proud of the Government’s record on waiting times. I pay an unequivocal t...
Neil Findlay
Lab
That is all very well, but the staff do not want the cabinet secretary’s thanks; they want a safe working environment in which they are respected and in whic...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
That is what they will get for as long as this Government is in charge.If anything, progress on waiting times is even more impressive than progress on health...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
I will make some progress and give way shortly.All that progress is the result of the hard work and the commitment of tens of thousands of NHS staff, whose h...
Dr Simpson
Lab
Let me be quite clear: the cabinet secretary is saying that she will not ask questions when she sees variation. The NHS Lothian figures were in the public do...
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
That is not what I am saying, and Dr Simpson knows that. I will come on in a second to exactly the questions that I am asking.As I said, what happened in NHS...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention on that point?
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
No. I want to make progress.The social unavailability aspect of the new system is nothing like the old, discredited system of Labour. The new system gives pa...
Dr Simpson
Lab
Some do.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Order.
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
Their waiting time clock stops for the time that they are unavailable and, for 75 per cent of patients who have a period of social unavailability, it is a pe...
Sarah Boyack
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention on that point?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
The minister is in her last minute.
Nicola Sturgeon
SNP
We will ensure that the findings of those investigations are made available not just to the Government, but to Audit Scotland. I welcome Audit Scotland’s ann...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Dear, dear. It is difficult not to be depressed by the two opening speeches—not that there were not things within them that were of interest or true. The nex...
Dr Simpson
Lab
Would the member be surprised to learn that NHS Ayrshire and Arran failed to record 26 per cent of its referral-to-treatment notifications? Twenty-six per ce...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
Naively, I am surprised. I would have thought that anybody should be surprised. Not only am I surprised, I am appalled. The situation needs to be investigate...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
We come to the open debate. We are tight for time so, unfortunately, I will not be able to give time back for interventions. Speeches should be of four minut...
Mark McDonald (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I do not think that it is helpful to cast around aspersions and innuendo as to the motivations that lie behind decisions that are taken at NHS level, of whic...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the member give way?
Mark McDonald
SNP
I am sorry, but I have only four minutes. I am sure that the intervention would have been interesting. Some other time.As a member who represents North East ...