Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 May 2012
17 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Civilian Police Staff
We are protecting police budgets and police numbers. That contrasts with Yvette Cooper’s position, which is why I got a standing ovation at the Scottish Police Federation, while Ms Cooper was met with stony silence and cheers of derision because her position is simply opportunistic and oppositionist.
Reform is not about doing what we do now—which is to do things eight times over—but about doing things differently. Reform will ensure that policing responds to 21st century challenges, and will create equal access to specialist and national services such as murder investigation and firearms teams, while strengthening the connections between the service and the communities that are served. All Scotland needs to have access to, and to be protected by, those specialist services.
I appreciate that the transition from the current eight-force structure to a single police service of Scotland brings uncertainty for police officers and civilian support staff alike. I fully understand that, but I assure Parliament that we are working closely with the service to ensure the smoothest possible transition, including the early appointment of the chief constable and the chair of the police authority, so that key decisions about the new service can be taken.
We will continue to work closely with trade unions, staff associations, local authorities and the service on the workforce issues. Ministers will create the broad framework and provide the finance in which the new service will operate, but it will be for the chief constable to decide what the balance of officers and staff should be.
We currently have eight chief constables: the new single service will need only one. We will no longer need the administrative support staff that are required for eight chiefs. Just as we will no longer need eight chiefs, we will no longer need eight heads of human resources or eight heads of finance. The people of Scotland expect us to employ no more people than are required to deliver effective policing.
Just as some jobs will change, many jobs will stay the same: support staff will continue to play a vital role in the new service; we will still need forensics staff at scenes of crime; we will still need experienced staff in communications centres to ensure that vital 999 calls are answered and dealt with; and we will still need specialist information and communications technology staff to keep systems up and running. All of them are fundamental. Support staff will remain central to the success of the new service, but yes—fewer support staff than we have at present will be needed at the end of the reform journey, just as fewer chief constables will be required.
This Government will act responsibly to protect front-line services. Lewis Macdonald’s motion advocates an irresponsible policy of protecting duplicated functions and services that will not be required in the new single service. Reform offers a unique opportunity to do things better and to reshape policing to reflect the challenges and opportunities of the 21st century. Ultimately, it will be more effective and efficient, and better for all communities.
I reiterate my recognition of the vital role that civilian support staff play and I commit to involving them and the trade unions fully as we move forward.
I move amendment S4M-02906.2, to leave out from first “believes” to end and insert:
“recognises and values the dedication and hard work of police staff and police officers in Scotland, which have resulted in a 35-year low in recorded crime; agrees that reform is essential to protect policing from UK Government budget cuts and that police reform will protect local services, create more equal access to specialist support and national services and strengthen the connection between services and communities while removing costly duplication; notes the strong progress being made to deliver a single police service of Scotland; recognises that civilian support staff will continue to play an important role in the new police service of Scotland, and supports the Scottish Government’s commitment to continue to work closely with staff associations and unions to ensure a smooth transition to the new police service of Scotland.”
09:34
Reform is not about doing what we do now—which is to do things eight times over—but about doing things differently. Reform will ensure that policing responds to 21st century challenges, and will create equal access to specialist and national services such as murder investigation and firearms teams, while strengthening the connections between the service and the communities that are served. All Scotland needs to have access to, and to be protected by, those specialist services.
I appreciate that the transition from the current eight-force structure to a single police service of Scotland brings uncertainty for police officers and civilian support staff alike. I fully understand that, but I assure Parliament that we are working closely with the service to ensure the smoothest possible transition, including the early appointment of the chief constable and the chair of the police authority, so that key decisions about the new service can be taken.
We will continue to work closely with trade unions, staff associations, local authorities and the service on the workforce issues. Ministers will create the broad framework and provide the finance in which the new service will operate, but it will be for the chief constable to decide what the balance of officers and staff should be.
We currently have eight chief constables: the new single service will need only one. We will no longer need the administrative support staff that are required for eight chiefs. Just as we will no longer need eight chiefs, we will no longer need eight heads of human resources or eight heads of finance. The people of Scotland expect us to employ no more people than are required to deliver effective policing.
Just as some jobs will change, many jobs will stay the same: support staff will continue to play a vital role in the new service; we will still need forensics staff at scenes of crime; we will still need experienced staff in communications centres to ensure that vital 999 calls are answered and dealt with; and we will still need specialist information and communications technology staff to keep systems up and running. All of them are fundamental. Support staff will remain central to the success of the new service, but yes—fewer support staff than we have at present will be needed at the end of the reform journey, just as fewer chief constables will be required.
This Government will act responsibly to protect front-line services. Lewis Macdonald’s motion advocates an irresponsible policy of protecting duplicated functions and services that will not be required in the new single service. Reform offers a unique opportunity to do things better and to reshape policing to reflect the challenges and opportunities of the 21st century. Ultimately, it will be more effective and efficient, and better for all communities.
I reiterate my recognition of the vital role that civilian support staff play and I commit to involving them and the trade unions fully as we move forward.
I move amendment S4M-02906.2, to leave out from first “believes” to end and insert:
“recognises and values the dedication and hard work of police staff and police officers in Scotland, which have resulted in a 35-year low in recorded crime; agrees that reform is essential to protect policing from UK Government budget cuts and that police reform will protect local services, create more equal access to specialist support and national services and strengthen the connection between services and communities while removing costly duplication; notes the strong progress being made to deliver a single police service of Scotland; recognises that civilian support staff will continue to play an important role in the new police service of Scotland, and supports the Scottish Government’s commitment to continue to work closely with staff associations and unions to ensure a smooth transition to the new police service of Scotland.”
09:34
References in this contribution
Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.
- S4M-02906.2 Justice Motion
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02906, in name of Lewis Macdonald, on justice. Members who wish to take part in the debate should press ...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
It is a week since we debated the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill and it completed stage 1 of its passage through Parliament. We in the Labour Party s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
Is Lewis Macdonald implying that this should not be an operational matter for the chief constable, who is accountable to the board? Is he really suggesting t...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
It is not a question of whether or not I think ministers should direct chief constables; the cabinet secretary has said that he will direct the chief constab...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
For the sake of balance, I point out that, in evidence, Chief Constable Kevin Smith said:“There is a notion that for every member of support staff that goes ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I will give you a few more minutes, Mr Macdonald.
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer.That is certainly ACPOS’s intention in its approach to the process, but it would not have told the Justice Committee that there ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I welcome the debate and the opportunity that it offers to consider an important issue. I say at the outset that the Government recognises and values the eno...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Would the cabinet secretary be good enough to acknowledge that crime rates have fallen across Europe and that, in America, they are approaching a 50-year low...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
The situation is down to splendid work by the wider police family. I have commented that other factors are involved, but I believe that there is, particularl...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary nonetheless acknowledge that his current approach to civilian staff taking on roles that were formerly done by police officers is ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
That takes me back to the point that that is an operational matter for the chief constable. It is not appropriate for me to intervene in Lothian and Borders ...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
What percentage cut will be made to the police budget as a result of the plans?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
We are protecting police budgets and police numbers. That contrasts with Yvette Cooper’s position, which is why I got a standing ovation at the Scottish Poli...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
In the context of the current events—the largest reform of Scotland’s policing for more than a generation—this morning’s debate is important and I thank the ...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee City West) (SNP)
SNP
How many civilian staff have lost their jobs through compulsory redundancy as a result of the Liberal Democrat-Conservative Government at Westminster?
Alison McInnes
LD
Mr FitzPatrick would do well to focus on what we are here to focus on, which is the running of the service in this country, for which responsibility sits wit...
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to debate the future of civilian staff in Scotland’s police forces, which touches on topics that we discussed last week during the ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We will now move to the open debate. Members have a strict four minutes. I regret that, if you take interventions, I will be not be able to give you addition...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Obviously, we have to say that these are not times of plenty. Let us begin at the beginning. I repeat the cabinet secretary’s words:“we are making a virtue o...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Will the member give way?
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sorry, but I have only four minutes, and I have things that I want to say.Thirdly, it is of course appropriate for two reasons that Opposition parties a...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The member has 30 seconds.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I say to Alison McInnes that crime figures and the fear of crime are falling notwithstanding civilian jobs going.In England, Theresa May was told by the Poli...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I am sorry to cut you off, Ms Grahame, but I need to call Graeme Pearson.09:49
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The effective delivery of policing requires, among other things, the Government to provide confidence to police and police staff about their future in respec...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
There is a strong sense of déjà vu about the debate. Last week, during the stage 1 debate on the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill, I reminded the chamb...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The member has no time to take an intervention.
Roderick Campbell
SNP
As the cabinet secretary acknowledged, support staff have made and will continue to make an important contribution to reducing crime and making Scotland safe...