Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 31 May 2012
31 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill
The member will have to excuse me, but I really want to give the chamber some more information that I did not have time to give earlier.
I understand from Registers of Scotland that, at a rough order of magnitude, the cost of the aspiration of undertaking the 700,000 keeper-induced registrations by 2017—I repeat, 700,000 registrations—is around £25 million. The keeper has set aside £10 million in the reserves in her trading fund, and the intention is to recoup the £15 million shortfall from the fee income over 10 financial years, which will have to be reflected in the biennial fee reviews.
Of course, all these things are kept under review; of course, they are studied; and, of course, ambitious, major and detailed plans have been put in place and will be enacted to extend the coverage of Scotland’s land register. This is not minor progress; it is major progress that will happen not simply because we pass the bill—which, after all, is only words on a page, important though they are—but because team Scotland is working together to achieve the bill’s aims and to ensure the gradual completion of the land register.
In fact, to pursue that aim, the keeper and I jointly wrote an article for The Journal of the Law Society of Scotland last year in which we encouraged landowners to get their titles registered. I take this opportunity to make the same encouragement to ensure that landowners receive the benefits of land registration. Indeed, plans are afoot to encourage landowners in this matter; for a start, Rhoda Grant was quite right to point out that because the fees have a maximum cap they represent an excellent deal. In some cases, the current fees do not reflect the total cost to the keeper of carrying out this work. I repeat my exhortation to landowners to seriously consider the offer. If they transfer their titles to the land register, they will find that the benefits can be considerable; for example, they might discover that they own land that they were not aware of and that it is easier to transact land for development. Those kinds of commercial benefits can be gleaned and I praise the keeper and her staff for their very detailed efforts in dealing with this matter.
The bill makes a number of very important changes to land registration practices and adopts many of the sound practices that have developed over the years. For a start, it makes provision for defining inaccuracy in the land register and, more important, when and how titles can be rectified. As a matter of registration practice, the keeper has been proactive in bringing new procedures in line with recognised international standards and the mapping working group that I believe Mr Macintosh mentioned in his remarks and which comprises members of the Ordnance Survey, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, the Law Society and Registers of Scotland has been established.
I must also thank Mike MacKenzie, who I think has been somewhat modest, because he did a power of work on this bill for the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee and brought a lot of knowledge to its scrutiny. Assisted by committee members, he lodged an important stage 2 amendment that in effect allows a case to be referred to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland instead of individuals having to go to the full expense and through the whole panoply of court action.
Mr Park asked me to respond to his important point. Although in many cases it might be possible to refer underlying legal issues to the Lands Tribunal, I must, as I have before, indicate that, as I think Mr Park is aware, the Parliament has certain restrictions on its freedom to make law that alters existing property rights in live cases.
Annabel Goldie accused me of indifference towards her, ignoring her entreaties and not taking seriously her inestimable contributions to this and previous debates on this matter—perish the thought. How could I now, in the past or in the future ever be indifferent to Miss Goldie’s entreaties? My difficulty is in preventing my beating heart from distracting me and in ensuring that my mind is engaged with her remarks. [Interruption.] I am told that I should move on, Presiding Officer.
I understand from Registers of Scotland that, at a rough order of magnitude, the cost of the aspiration of undertaking the 700,000 keeper-induced registrations by 2017—I repeat, 700,000 registrations—is around £25 million. The keeper has set aside £10 million in the reserves in her trading fund, and the intention is to recoup the £15 million shortfall from the fee income over 10 financial years, which will have to be reflected in the biennial fee reviews.
Of course, all these things are kept under review; of course, they are studied; and, of course, ambitious, major and detailed plans have been put in place and will be enacted to extend the coverage of Scotland’s land register. This is not minor progress; it is major progress that will happen not simply because we pass the bill—which, after all, is only words on a page, important though they are—but because team Scotland is working together to achieve the bill’s aims and to ensure the gradual completion of the land register.
In fact, to pursue that aim, the keeper and I jointly wrote an article for The Journal of the Law Society of Scotland last year in which we encouraged landowners to get their titles registered. I take this opportunity to make the same encouragement to ensure that landowners receive the benefits of land registration. Indeed, plans are afoot to encourage landowners in this matter; for a start, Rhoda Grant was quite right to point out that because the fees have a maximum cap they represent an excellent deal. In some cases, the current fees do not reflect the total cost to the keeper of carrying out this work. I repeat my exhortation to landowners to seriously consider the offer. If they transfer their titles to the land register, they will find that the benefits can be considerable; for example, they might discover that they own land that they were not aware of and that it is easier to transact land for development. Those kinds of commercial benefits can be gleaned and I praise the keeper and her staff for their very detailed efforts in dealing with this matter.
The bill makes a number of very important changes to land registration practices and adopts many of the sound practices that have developed over the years. For a start, it makes provision for defining inaccuracy in the land register and, more important, when and how titles can be rectified. As a matter of registration practice, the keeper has been proactive in bringing new procedures in line with recognised international standards and the mapping working group that I believe Mr Macintosh mentioned in his remarks and which comprises members of the Ordnance Survey, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, the Law Society and Registers of Scotland has been established.
I must also thank Mike MacKenzie, who I think has been somewhat modest, because he did a power of work on this bill for the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee and brought a lot of knowledge to its scrutiny. Assisted by committee members, he lodged an important stage 2 amendment that in effect allows a case to be referred to the Lands Tribunal for Scotland instead of individuals having to go to the full expense and through the whole panoply of court action.
Mr Park asked me to respond to his important point. Although in many cases it might be possible to refer underlying legal issues to the Lands Tribunal, I must, as I have before, indicate that, as I think Mr Park is aware, the Parliament has certain restrictions on its freedom to make law that alters existing property rights in live cases.
Annabel Goldie accused me of indifference towards her, ignoring her entreaties and not taking seriously her inestimable contributions to this and previous debates on this matter—perish the thought. How could I now, in the past or in the future ever be indifferent to Miss Goldie’s entreaties? My difficulty is in preventing my beating heart from distracting me and in ensuring that my mind is engaged with her remarks. [Interruption.] I am told that I should move on, Presiding Officer.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03070, in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill.As the bill contains pro...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration etc ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you. We now move to the debate. I call Fergus Ewing to speak to and move the motion. You have a generous 10 minutes, minister.10:25
The Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
Thank you for your generosity, Presiding Officer.I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. First, I thank the mem...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I may have beaten Mr Harvie to asking the same question.The minister hopes that 80 per cent of properties will be registered by 2017. What proportion of the ...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I suspected that members might be interested in the answer to that question, so I consulted officials about it yesterday evening. Most of the 700,000 propert...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I do not know whether Mr Fraser and Mr Harvie have the same question to ask; it would be a parliamentary first. Let me not be accused of dodging any question...
Patrick Harvie
Green
My question is related. The minister is talking about moving from 55 per cent to 80 per cent of titles being covered but says that there is likely to be only...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
We have made it clear that the process cannot happen overnight and will take many years to complete. Mr Harvie is entitled to suggest alternative approaches....
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Given that our system of conveyancing is based on mutual trust and professional obligation, what consideration was given to safeguards against criminal and f...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The point of land registration legislation is to provide a state guarantee to title; the bill extends that protection. The protection of the public is also s...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
As I suspect all members will do today, I begin by welcoming the reforms in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill and the improvements that we hope the b...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I declare my interests as a member of the Law Society of Scotland and the convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, which was responsible for st...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I sat through a number of evidence-gathering sessions and read a number of the written submi...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I echo the sentiments and words of John Wilson on the work that the committee clerks and other parliamentary staff did on the bill. The bill is technical in ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I compliment my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for their considered and intelligent scrutiny of the bill, and the clerks, who pr...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I echo the thanks that have been expressed to my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, to our clerking team, to the officials who supp...
Mike MacKenzie
SNP
If a target such as the member describes was set, what mechanism could the Government use to ensure that it was achieved?
Patrick Harvie
Green
That goes back to the minister’s response to my earlier comments. He said that an alternative to the purely voluntary approach, which we know will not achiev...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As one of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee members who scrutinised the bill, I am happy that it will provide an improved framework and experience fo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
As I mentioned at stage 1, I am now a retired solicitor, but when in practice I undertook conveyancing work over many years. As my colleague Murdo Fraser com...
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Does Annabel Goldie agree that it should not be about just the next five years, but that there should be continual scrutiny by future ministers to ensure tha...
Annabel Goldie
Con
Yes. My remarks were prompted by the minister’s specific comments about 2017 in the debate. The critical period of five years is significant.I share the conc...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, want to put on record my thanks to the committee clerks, our adviser Professor Kenneth Reid, SPICe, all the other officials who gave us advice and al...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
This has been a useful and constructive debate. I thank all members for their contributions. The debate has demonstrated that members agree that this is an i...
John Wilson
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The member will have to excuse me, but I really want to give the chamber some more information that I did not have time to give earlier.I understand from Reg...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
You have 20 seconds, Mr Ewing.
Fergus Ewing
SNP
In all seriousness, we believe that the offence provision in the bill is necessary. As the overwhelming majority of solicitors are honest, they will be neith...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Minister, two weeks ago, you cast aspersions on my virtues when we were together in New York; now here you are, referring to Miss Goldie in such terms. One o...