Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 31 May 2012
31 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill
As one of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee members who scrutinised the bill, I am happy that it will provide an improved framework and experience for all stakeholders.
In the stage 1 debate on 14 March, I highlighted my “sense of trepidation” at the beginning of the bill’s progress through Parliament. However, the bill has been extremely interesting, in contrast to what Murdo Fraser said. I do not know whether he takes his view because he is a lawyer—the only lawyer on the committee. The bill has been extremely interesting and it is important, because it will bring an element of public and private life up to date.
A number of issues were raised during the bill process. I took a particular interest in the automated registration of title to land system and the use of information technology under part 10. In this day and age, there is absolutely no reason whatever why the use of electronic means—or, to coin a phrase, electronic wizardry—should not be increased.
In paragraph 103 of our stage 1 report, we suggested that the keeper should “consult and test widely” to get improved buy-in from the sector for e-registration. I am content that Registers of Scotland will undertake appropriate consultation and testing with stakeholders and end users in developing new or upgraded electronic registration systems. However, I reserve the right—I am sure that every member in the chamber would do the same—to challenge the Registers of Scotland if it does not undertake those actions.
We all understand that public consultations sometimes do not get full backing. In listening to some of the evidence throughout the bill process, it was clear that there was a level of scepticism towards the keeper, particularly with regard to consulting and listening to practitioners. I hope that the process of consultation and testing will continue once the bill is enacted. I am sure that an improved dialogue will take place, and I hope that the end user will obtain a better experience.
A key aim of the bill is to bring land registration into the 21st century. However, a further key aim is to use land registration as an economic driver, as the minister highlighted earlier. The SPICe briefing for today’s debate highlighted the challenge that we as a Parliament face in progressing registrations. There are 2.6 million units of property in Scotland, of which 55 per cent have switched to the land register, and 21 per cent of Scotland’s land mass is on the register. That has come about since the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979 was passed.
The bill will have a positive effect on the number of registrations, and on the percentage of land mass that is registered. However, I hope that the Parliament will return to various land registration issues in the future. Patrick Harvie mentioned compulsory registration, which the minister indicated that he does not wish to include in the bill.
I agree with the minister’s comments on the economic potential of the bill and the economic driver theory behind it. However, future Governments will need to continue to scrutinise the progress of land registration. If that happens, the land register will indeed be completed. The Parliament has not undertaken much post-legislative scrutiny since it came back into being because it has had so many other issues to deal with. However, regular scrutiny would allow future Governments the opportunity to act swiftly if the bill’s aims were not being achieved.
I will back the bill tonight, and I thank my colleagues on the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for the way in which they have scrutinised it. I also thank the clerking team, the SPICe team, the committee adviser and the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee.
I have enjoyed the bill process, and I have learned a tremendous amount. I am sure that when the bill is enacted, it will bring about an improved level of land registration. I am convinced that we will reach the 100 per cent registration target in future.
11:18
In the stage 1 debate on 14 March, I highlighted my “sense of trepidation” at the beginning of the bill’s progress through Parliament. However, the bill has been extremely interesting, in contrast to what Murdo Fraser said. I do not know whether he takes his view because he is a lawyer—the only lawyer on the committee. The bill has been extremely interesting and it is important, because it will bring an element of public and private life up to date.
A number of issues were raised during the bill process. I took a particular interest in the automated registration of title to land system and the use of information technology under part 10. In this day and age, there is absolutely no reason whatever why the use of electronic means—or, to coin a phrase, electronic wizardry—should not be increased.
In paragraph 103 of our stage 1 report, we suggested that the keeper should “consult and test widely” to get improved buy-in from the sector for e-registration. I am content that Registers of Scotland will undertake appropriate consultation and testing with stakeholders and end users in developing new or upgraded electronic registration systems. However, I reserve the right—I am sure that every member in the chamber would do the same—to challenge the Registers of Scotland if it does not undertake those actions.
We all understand that public consultations sometimes do not get full backing. In listening to some of the evidence throughout the bill process, it was clear that there was a level of scepticism towards the keeper, particularly with regard to consulting and listening to practitioners. I hope that the process of consultation and testing will continue once the bill is enacted. I am sure that an improved dialogue will take place, and I hope that the end user will obtain a better experience.
A key aim of the bill is to bring land registration into the 21st century. However, a further key aim is to use land registration as an economic driver, as the minister highlighted earlier. The SPICe briefing for today’s debate highlighted the challenge that we as a Parliament face in progressing registrations. There are 2.6 million units of property in Scotland, of which 55 per cent have switched to the land register, and 21 per cent of Scotland’s land mass is on the register. That has come about since the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979 was passed.
The bill will have a positive effect on the number of registrations, and on the percentage of land mass that is registered. However, I hope that the Parliament will return to various land registration issues in the future. Patrick Harvie mentioned compulsory registration, which the minister indicated that he does not wish to include in the bill.
I agree with the minister’s comments on the economic potential of the bill and the economic driver theory behind it. However, future Governments will need to continue to scrutinise the progress of land registration. If that happens, the land register will indeed be completed. The Parliament has not undertaken much post-legislative scrutiny since it came back into being because it has had so many other issues to deal with. However, regular scrutiny would allow future Governments the opportunity to act swiftly if the bill’s aims were not being achieved.
I will back the bill tonight, and I thank my colleagues on the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for the way in which they have scrutinised it. I also thank the clerking team, the SPICe team, the committee adviser and the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee.
I have enjoyed the bill process, and I have learned a tremendous amount. I am sure that when the bill is enacted, it will bring about an improved level of land registration. I am convinced that we will reach the 100 per cent registration target in future.
11:18
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03070, in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill.As the bill contains pro...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration etc ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you. We now move to the debate. I call Fergus Ewing to speak to and move the motion. You have a generous 10 minutes, minister.10:25
The Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
Thank you for your generosity, Presiding Officer.I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. First, I thank the mem...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I may have beaten Mr Harvie to asking the same question.The minister hopes that 80 per cent of properties will be registered by 2017. What proportion of the ...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I suspected that members might be interested in the answer to that question, so I consulted officials about it yesterday evening. Most of the 700,000 propert...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I do not know whether Mr Fraser and Mr Harvie have the same question to ask; it would be a parliamentary first. Let me not be accused of dodging any question...
Patrick Harvie
Green
My question is related. The minister is talking about moving from 55 per cent to 80 per cent of titles being covered but says that there is likely to be only...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
We have made it clear that the process cannot happen overnight and will take many years to complete. Mr Harvie is entitled to suggest alternative approaches....
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Given that our system of conveyancing is based on mutual trust and professional obligation, what consideration was given to safeguards against criminal and f...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The point of land registration legislation is to provide a state guarantee to title; the bill extends that protection. The protection of the public is also s...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
As I suspect all members will do today, I begin by welcoming the reforms in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill and the improvements that we hope the b...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I declare my interests as a member of the Law Society of Scotland and the convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, which was responsible for st...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I sat through a number of evidence-gathering sessions and read a number of the written submi...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I echo the sentiments and words of John Wilson on the work that the committee clerks and other parliamentary staff did on the bill. The bill is technical in ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I compliment my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for their considered and intelligent scrutiny of the bill, and the clerks, who pr...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I echo the thanks that have been expressed to my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, to our clerking team, to the officials who supp...
Mike MacKenzie
SNP
If a target such as the member describes was set, what mechanism could the Government use to ensure that it was achieved?
Patrick Harvie
Green
That goes back to the minister’s response to my earlier comments. He said that an alternative to the purely voluntary approach, which we know will not achiev...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As one of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee members who scrutinised the bill, I am happy that it will provide an improved framework and experience fo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
As I mentioned at stage 1, I am now a retired solicitor, but when in practice I undertook conveyancing work over many years. As my colleague Murdo Fraser com...
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Does Annabel Goldie agree that it should not be about just the next five years, but that there should be continual scrutiny by future ministers to ensure tha...
Annabel Goldie
Con
Yes. My remarks were prompted by the minister’s specific comments about 2017 in the debate. The critical period of five years is significant.I share the conc...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, want to put on record my thanks to the committee clerks, our adviser Professor Kenneth Reid, SPICe, all the other officials who gave us advice and al...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
This has been a useful and constructive debate. I thank all members for their contributions. The debate has demonstrated that members agree that this is an i...
John Wilson
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The member will have to excuse me, but I really want to give the chamber some more information that I did not have time to give earlier.I understand from Reg...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
You have 20 seconds, Mr Ewing.
Fergus Ewing
SNP
In all seriousness, we believe that the offence provision in the bill is necessary. As the overwhelming majority of solicitors are honest, they will be neith...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Minister, two weeks ago, you cast aspersions on my virtues when we were together in New York; now here you are, referring to Miss Goldie in such terms. One o...