Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 31 May 2012
31 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill
I compliment my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for their considered and intelligent scrutiny of the bill, and the clerks, who provided their usual high standard of support. Most of all, I want to record a personal thanks to Professor Kenneth Reid, who provided us with specialist legal advice. It is a great tribute to him that he did so in a way that facilitated our understanding, as lay people, of some fairly technical issues with both humour and patience. I also thank the many witnesses who gave evidence, and the people who wrote to me and took an interest in the committee’s work.
We all agree that the bill’s general thrust and focus is to be welcomed. Completion of the land register is itself a worthy goal. Smoothing and rendering more efficient the processes that pertain to property transactions are equally worthy objectives. However, my concern throughout has been that, in our bid to complete the land register, we do not sacrifice quality for speed and that we recognise some of the problems of the system and attempt to deal with them, so far as we reasonably can.
I am therefore glad that Mr Ewing, the minister, engaged constructively with the committee and with the various stakeholders. He listened carefully and responded to suggestions for improvements to the bill when it was wise to do so. For example, in section 42, on prescriptive acquisitions, he reduced the period of abandonment of land from the originally proposed seven years. That is only one example of a practical and wise judgment being made when it had to be made.
A certain amount of idealism was displayed in the amendments that were lodged by some of my colleagues on the committee. Idealism, of course, is a fine thing and I am glad that the spirit of idealism is alive and well in the Parliament. However, we must never enforce our idealism when it will cause harm and difficulty, when ordinary people going about their business will be victims of that idealism, or when the practical difficulties far outweigh any benefits that the idealism might bring. I therefore hope that Mr Harvie and Ms Grant will understand why I felt unable to support their amendments.
However, even the best of systems can never be perfect. Despite the keeper’s reassurances that all was well, I felt that it was important that a more efficient and perhaps more cost-effective mechanism than the courts ought to be available for resolving mistakes or disputes. I was therefore glad to be able to lodge an amendment at stage 2 that will have the effect of allowing the Lands Tribunal to provide such a mechanism. The unanimous support that the amendment achieved in committee was due much more to the common sense of my colleagues and the compelling evidence that we had heard than to any persuasive ability on my part.
The bill has been much improved in its course through the Parliament. I have been pleased to play my own small part in the process and I hope that members throughout the chamber will support the bill.
11:07
We all agree that the bill’s general thrust and focus is to be welcomed. Completion of the land register is itself a worthy goal. Smoothing and rendering more efficient the processes that pertain to property transactions are equally worthy objectives. However, my concern throughout has been that, in our bid to complete the land register, we do not sacrifice quality for speed and that we recognise some of the problems of the system and attempt to deal with them, so far as we reasonably can.
I am therefore glad that Mr Ewing, the minister, engaged constructively with the committee and with the various stakeholders. He listened carefully and responded to suggestions for improvements to the bill when it was wise to do so. For example, in section 42, on prescriptive acquisitions, he reduced the period of abandonment of land from the originally proposed seven years. That is only one example of a practical and wise judgment being made when it had to be made.
A certain amount of idealism was displayed in the amendments that were lodged by some of my colleagues on the committee. Idealism, of course, is a fine thing and I am glad that the spirit of idealism is alive and well in the Parliament. However, we must never enforce our idealism when it will cause harm and difficulty, when ordinary people going about their business will be victims of that idealism, or when the practical difficulties far outweigh any benefits that the idealism might bring. I therefore hope that Mr Harvie and Ms Grant will understand why I felt unable to support their amendments.
However, even the best of systems can never be perfect. Despite the keeper’s reassurances that all was well, I felt that it was important that a more efficient and perhaps more cost-effective mechanism than the courts ought to be available for resolving mistakes or disputes. I was therefore glad to be able to lodge an amendment at stage 2 that will have the effect of allowing the Lands Tribunal to provide such a mechanism. The unanimous support that the amendment achieved in committee was due much more to the common sense of my colleagues and the compelling evidence that we had heard than to any persuasive ability on my part.
The bill has been much improved in its course through the Parliament. I have been pleased to play my own small part in the process and I hope that members throughout the chamber will support the bill.
11:07
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03070, in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill.As the bill contains pro...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration etc ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you. We now move to the debate. I call Fergus Ewing to speak to and move the motion. You have a generous 10 minutes, minister.10:25
The Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
Thank you for your generosity, Presiding Officer.I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. First, I thank the mem...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I may have beaten Mr Harvie to asking the same question.The minister hopes that 80 per cent of properties will be registered by 2017. What proportion of the ...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I suspected that members might be interested in the answer to that question, so I consulted officials about it yesterday evening. Most of the 700,000 propert...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I do not know whether Mr Fraser and Mr Harvie have the same question to ask; it would be a parliamentary first. Let me not be accused of dodging any question...
Patrick Harvie
Green
My question is related. The minister is talking about moving from 55 per cent to 80 per cent of titles being covered but says that there is likely to be only...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
We have made it clear that the process cannot happen overnight and will take many years to complete. Mr Harvie is entitled to suggest alternative approaches....
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Given that our system of conveyancing is based on mutual trust and professional obligation, what consideration was given to safeguards against criminal and f...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The point of land registration legislation is to provide a state guarantee to title; the bill extends that protection. The protection of the public is also s...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
As I suspect all members will do today, I begin by welcoming the reforms in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill and the improvements that we hope the b...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I declare my interests as a member of the Law Society of Scotland and the convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, which was responsible for st...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I sat through a number of evidence-gathering sessions and read a number of the written submi...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I echo the sentiments and words of John Wilson on the work that the committee clerks and other parliamentary staff did on the bill. The bill is technical in ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I compliment my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for their considered and intelligent scrutiny of the bill, and the clerks, who pr...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I echo the thanks that have been expressed to my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, to our clerking team, to the officials who supp...
Mike MacKenzie
SNP
If a target such as the member describes was set, what mechanism could the Government use to ensure that it was achieved?
Patrick Harvie
Green
That goes back to the minister’s response to my earlier comments. He said that an alternative to the purely voluntary approach, which we know will not achiev...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As one of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee members who scrutinised the bill, I am happy that it will provide an improved framework and experience fo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
As I mentioned at stage 1, I am now a retired solicitor, but when in practice I undertook conveyancing work over many years. As my colleague Murdo Fraser com...
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Does Annabel Goldie agree that it should not be about just the next five years, but that there should be continual scrutiny by future ministers to ensure tha...
Annabel Goldie
Con
Yes. My remarks were prompted by the minister’s specific comments about 2017 in the debate. The critical period of five years is significant.I share the conc...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, want to put on record my thanks to the committee clerks, our adviser Professor Kenneth Reid, SPICe, all the other officials who gave us advice and al...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
This has been a useful and constructive debate. I thank all members for their contributions. The debate has demonstrated that members agree that this is an i...
John Wilson
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The member will have to excuse me, but I really want to give the chamber some more information that I did not have time to give earlier.I understand from Reg...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
You have 20 seconds, Mr Ewing.
Fergus Ewing
SNP
In all seriousness, we believe that the offence provision in the bill is necessary. As the overwhelming majority of solicitors are honest, they will be neith...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Minister, two weeks ago, you cast aspersions on my virtues when we were together in New York; now here you are, referring to Miss Goldie in such terms. One o...