Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 31 May 2012
31 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill
I echo the sentiments and words of John Wilson on the work that the committee clerks and other parliamentary staff did on the bill. The bill is technical in nature and a considerable amount of work went on behind the scenes to enable committee members to draw up our stage 1 report and scrutinise the bill as effectively as we could. I think that we did that.
Murdo Fraser said that the bill is not the most exciting piece of legislation that he has been involved in, but I actually found it quite exciting. That might be a reflection of how dull my life is, but I found it very interesting. We moved from debating the policy issues to coming up with proposals that will make a difference, and consideration of the bill was a worthwhile process for everyone who was involved.
I had not intended to say anything about section 108, but I note John Wilson’s suggestion that we should consider the concerns that were highlighted to the committee and ensure that the policy decisions that are taken address the practicalities and the concerns that people have. That suggestion is important, because we need to build confidence. Certainly, as someone without a legal background, I understand some of the commonsense concerns about section 108. John Wilson’s suggestions are valid and very important to help ensure that we get something that delivers what it was designed to do.
The minister said that the bill is about developing a land register that is fit for the 21st century. That is why the e-conveyancing and e-documents that we discussed are important. They will ensure that the land register reflects how people live their lives these days—how they perform various financial transactions and how they gather information predominantly from the internet. In that regard, there is a bit of catching up to do on how the bill may work. However, the provisions in the bill will ensure that there is confidence to develop electronic services such as e-conveyancing, to ensure that the bill makes a difference in that area.
Consumers, individuals and communities will be able to engage with the system in the same way that they can with many other organisations, for example in the financial services area. That is important. I have worked with community groups that try to identify people who own land, get involved in proposals and work to develop proposals in their areas that will make a difference to their communities. Such groups are hindered by the inability to access the information that they need, and it is important that the committee considered that in its scrutiny of the bill.
I hope that the Lands Tribunal proposal, which was agreed to at stage 2, will make a fundamental difference. With that in place, some of the issues that we read about daily or which, as Murdo Fraser said, we deal with in our constituency casework, will be able to be tackled in a way that is cost effective for people who may previously have been excluded. I have a concern on one issue, or rather a request for some clarity from the minister when he winds up. Obviously, some people are already in the dispute system, while others are on the cusp of that system. Regarding the policy development that will flow from the bill, it would be helpful to know the Scottish Government’s view on how to deal with those who may have problems retrospectively. I have a constituent in Newburgh with an on-going case who would find that helpful.
There is expertise out there, which helped the committee to form opinions. That expertise deserves some policy development, going forward from the bill, which reflects our aspirations and concerns. I hope that the process will deliver that.
11:03
Murdo Fraser said that the bill is not the most exciting piece of legislation that he has been involved in, but I actually found it quite exciting. That might be a reflection of how dull my life is, but I found it very interesting. We moved from debating the policy issues to coming up with proposals that will make a difference, and consideration of the bill was a worthwhile process for everyone who was involved.
I had not intended to say anything about section 108, but I note John Wilson’s suggestion that we should consider the concerns that were highlighted to the committee and ensure that the policy decisions that are taken address the practicalities and the concerns that people have. That suggestion is important, because we need to build confidence. Certainly, as someone without a legal background, I understand some of the commonsense concerns about section 108. John Wilson’s suggestions are valid and very important to help ensure that we get something that delivers what it was designed to do.
The minister said that the bill is about developing a land register that is fit for the 21st century. That is why the e-conveyancing and e-documents that we discussed are important. They will ensure that the land register reflects how people live their lives these days—how they perform various financial transactions and how they gather information predominantly from the internet. In that regard, there is a bit of catching up to do on how the bill may work. However, the provisions in the bill will ensure that there is confidence to develop electronic services such as e-conveyancing, to ensure that the bill makes a difference in that area.
Consumers, individuals and communities will be able to engage with the system in the same way that they can with many other organisations, for example in the financial services area. That is important. I have worked with community groups that try to identify people who own land, get involved in proposals and work to develop proposals in their areas that will make a difference to their communities. Such groups are hindered by the inability to access the information that they need, and it is important that the committee considered that in its scrutiny of the bill.
I hope that the Lands Tribunal proposal, which was agreed to at stage 2, will make a fundamental difference. With that in place, some of the issues that we read about daily or which, as Murdo Fraser said, we deal with in our constituency casework, will be able to be tackled in a way that is cost effective for people who may previously have been excluded. I have a concern on one issue, or rather a request for some clarity from the minister when he winds up. Obviously, some people are already in the dispute system, while others are on the cusp of that system. Regarding the policy development that will flow from the bill, it would be helpful to know the Scottish Government’s view on how to deal with those who may have problems retrospectively. I have a constituent in Newburgh with an on-going case who would find that helpful.
There is expertise out there, which helped the committee to form opinions. That expertise deserves some policy development, going forward from the bill, which reflects our aspirations and concerns. I hope that the process will deliver that.
11:03
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03070, in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill.As the bill contains pro...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration etc ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you. We now move to the debate. I call Fergus Ewing to speak to and move the motion. You have a generous 10 minutes, minister.10:25
The Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
Thank you for your generosity, Presiding Officer.I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. First, I thank the mem...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I may have beaten Mr Harvie to asking the same question.The minister hopes that 80 per cent of properties will be registered by 2017. What proportion of the ...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I suspected that members might be interested in the answer to that question, so I consulted officials about it yesterday evening. Most of the 700,000 propert...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I do not know whether Mr Fraser and Mr Harvie have the same question to ask; it would be a parliamentary first. Let me not be accused of dodging any question...
Patrick Harvie
Green
My question is related. The minister is talking about moving from 55 per cent to 80 per cent of titles being covered but says that there is likely to be only...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
We have made it clear that the process cannot happen overnight and will take many years to complete. Mr Harvie is entitled to suggest alternative approaches....
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Given that our system of conveyancing is based on mutual trust and professional obligation, what consideration was given to safeguards against criminal and f...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The point of land registration legislation is to provide a state guarantee to title; the bill extends that protection. The protection of the public is also s...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
As I suspect all members will do today, I begin by welcoming the reforms in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill and the improvements that we hope the b...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I declare my interests as a member of the Law Society of Scotland and the convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, which was responsible for st...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I sat through a number of evidence-gathering sessions and read a number of the written submi...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I echo the sentiments and words of John Wilson on the work that the committee clerks and other parliamentary staff did on the bill. The bill is technical in ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I compliment my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for their considered and intelligent scrutiny of the bill, and the clerks, who pr...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I echo the thanks that have been expressed to my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, to our clerking team, to the officials who supp...
Mike MacKenzie
SNP
If a target such as the member describes was set, what mechanism could the Government use to ensure that it was achieved?
Patrick Harvie
Green
That goes back to the minister’s response to my earlier comments. He said that an alternative to the purely voluntary approach, which we know will not achiev...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As one of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee members who scrutinised the bill, I am happy that it will provide an improved framework and experience fo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
As I mentioned at stage 1, I am now a retired solicitor, but when in practice I undertook conveyancing work over many years. As my colleague Murdo Fraser com...
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Does Annabel Goldie agree that it should not be about just the next five years, but that there should be continual scrutiny by future ministers to ensure tha...
Annabel Goldie
Con
Yes. My remarks were prompted by the minister’s specific comments about 2017 in the debate. The critical period of five years is significant.I share the conc...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, want to put on record my thanks to the committee clerks, our adviser Professor Kenneth Reid, SPICe, all the other officials who gave us advice and al...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
This has been a useful and constructive debate. I thank all members for their contributions. The debate has demonstrated that members agree that this is an i...
John Wilson
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The member will have to excuse me, but I really want to give the chamber some more information that I did not have time to give earlier.I understand from Reg...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
You have 20 seconds, Mr Ewing.
Fergus Ewing
SNP
In all seriousness, we believe that the offence provision in the bill is necessary. As the overwhelming majority of solicitors are honest, they will be neith...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Minister, two weeks ago, you cast aspersions on my virtues when we were together in New York; now here you are, referring to Miss Goldie in such terms. One o...