Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 31 May 2012
31 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill
As deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I sat through a number of evidence-gathering sessions and read a number of the written submissions that were made to the committee in its examination of the bill. The bill builds on the previous legislation, which dates back to 1979. It attempts to bring a degree of modernity to the law and restates the law on the registration of rights in the land register.
It was clear to me and probably to other committee members that, since the introduction of the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979, progress on land registration has been uncomfortably slow. I welcome the minister’s statement today that the keeper hopes to have around 80 per cent of property titles registered by 2017. Nevertheless, there are still concerns regarding land registration and when we will see a complete land register of Scotland, which committee members made known at the committee. We attempted to get some dates or timetables into the bill towards which the keeper could work, and I am glad to hear from the minister that the keeper hopes to have the registration of land ownership and title up to 80 per cent by 2017. I welcome that advance.
One of the bill’s key objectives is to create the fastest possible method of efficiently completing land registration for the whole of Scotland, with sufficient safeguards being built in, in order to strengthen the overall process. There has been concern that the current procedure is overly bureaucratic and it has been argued that confidence needs to be developed, so the introduction of electronic conveyancing is a welcome move in developing new processes.
There is a human cost to these matters that needs to be reflected upon. I hope that the bill will go some way towards tackling disputes about land ownership and registration. As Murdo Fraser intimated, examples of disputes about land ownership and boundaries were brought to the committee during our evidence sessions, and members were able to give examples from their postbags of constituency inquiries that they have received regarding title and ownership of land and property. In some cases, new owners have found that they do not actually own the property that they thought they owned.
As I stated when the bill was debated in the chamber at stage 1, a key aspect of the proposals is the creation of a statutory offence of making a materially false or misleading statement to the keeper. I know that the minister and the Solicitor General for Scotland believe that that measure is a vital part of the bill as it will give them legal powers to deal with organised crime. The committee received a written submission from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that supports section 108 of the bill.
I recognise that there is a significant problem, and the bill attempts to address some of the concerns about the process that have been identified, particularly in relation to the tackling of fraud. The oral evidence that the Solicitor General, Lesley Thomson, gave to the committee, which was reflected in its stage 1 report, highlighted the importance of the creation of an offence to deal with organised crime.
I am aware that officials from the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and the Scottish Government met the Law Society of Scotland to discuss the scope of the offence in section 108. It is desirable that the Solicitor General ensures that there is regular dialogue with the Law Society on what further guidance and advice can be provided to solicitors once the bill has become law.
I welcome the stage 3 debate and the wide-ranging principles that are contained in the bill. I was glad to hear that the committee convener found our consideration of the bill an education. I think that all members of the committee found it an education, either as home owners or landowners. I thank all those who provided oral or written evidence to the committee. In particular, I thank Andy Wightman for his insight into the land ownership issues that arose in the debate. I also thank the committee clerks and SPICe for their support and assistance, as well as my colleagues on the committee for their work in enabling the bill to reach this stage of the legislative process.
10:58
It was clear to me and probably to other committee members that, since the introduction of the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979, progress on land registration has been uncomfortably slow. I welcome the minister’s statement today that the keeper hopes to have around 80 per cent of property titles registered by 2017. Nevertheless, there are still concerns regarding land registration and when we will see a complete land register of Scotland, which committee members made known at the committee. We attempted to get some dates or timetables into the bill towards which the keeper could work, and I am glad to hear from the minister that the keeper hopes to have the registration of land ownership and title up to 80 per cent by 2017. I welcome that advance.
One of the bill’s key objectives is to create the fastest possible method of efficiently completing land registration for the whole of Scotland, with sufficient safeguards being built in, in order to strengthen the overall process. There has been concern that the current procedure is overly bureaucratic and it has been argued that confidence needs to be developed, so the introduction of electronic conveyancing is a welcome move in developing new processes.
There is a human cost to these matters that needs to be reflected upon. I hope that the bill will go some way towards tackling disputes about land ownership and registration. As Murdo Fraser intimated, examples of disputes about land ownership and boundaries were brought to the committee during our evidence sessions, and members were able to give examples from their postbags of constituency inquiries that they have received regarding title and ownership of land and property. In some cases, new owners have found that they do not actually own the property that they thought they owned.
As I stated when the bill was debated in the chamber at stage 1, a key aspect of the proposals is the creation of a statutory offence of making a materially false or misleading statement to the keeper. I know that the minister and the Solicitor General for Scotland believe that that measure is a vital part of the bill as it will give them legal powers to deal with organised crime. The committee received a written submission from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that supports section 108 of the bill.
I recognise that there is a significant problem, and the bill attempts to address some of the concerns about the process that have been identified, particularly in relation to the tackling of fraud. The oral evidence that the Solicitor General, Lesley Thomson, gave to the committee, which was reflected in its stage 1 report, highlighted the importance of the creation of an offence to deal with organised crime.
I am aware that officials from the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and the Scottish Government met the Law Society of Scotland to discuss the scope of the offence in section 108. It is desirable that the Solicitor General ensures that there is regular dialogue with the Law Society on what further guidance and advice can be provided to solicitors once the bill has become law.
I welcome the stage 3 debate and the wide-ranging principles that are contained in the bill. I was glad to hear that the committee convener found our consideration of the bill an education. I think that all members of the committee found it an education, either as home owners or landowners. I thank all those who provided oral or written evidence to the committee. In particular, I thank Andy Wightman for his insight into the land ownership issues that arose in the debate. I also thank the committee clerks and SPICe for their support and assistance, as well as my colleagues on the committee for their work in enabling the bill to reach this stage of the legislative process.
10:58
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-03070, in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill.As the bill contains pro...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration etc ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you. We now move to the debate. I call Fergus Ewing to speak to and move the motion. You have a generous 10 minutes, minister.10:25
The Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
Thank you for your generosity, Presiding Officer.I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. First, I thank the mem...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I may have beaten Mr Harvie to asking the same question.The minister hopes that 80 per cent of properties will be registered by 2017. What proportion of the ...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I suspected that members might be interested in the answer to that question, so I consulted officials about it yesterday evening. Most of the 700,000 propert...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I do not know whether Mr Fraser and Mr Harvie have the same question to ask; it would be a parliamentary first. Let me not be accused of dodging any question...
Patrick Harvie
Green
My question is related. The minister is talking about moving from 55 per cent to 80 per cent of titles being covered but says that there is likely to be only...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
We have made it clear that the process cannot happen overnight and will take many years to complete. Mr Harvie is entitled to suggest alternative approaches....
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Given that our system of conveyancing is based on mutual trust and professional obligation, what consideration was given to safeguards against criminal and f...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The point of land registration legislation is to provide a state guarantee to title; the bill extends that protection. The protection of the public is also s...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
As I suspect all members will do today, I begin by welcoming the reforms in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill and the improvements that we hope the b...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I declare my interests as a member of the Law Society of Scotland and the convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, which was responsible for st...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As deputy convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I sat through a number of evidence-gathering sessions and read a number of the written submi...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I echo the sentiments and words of John Wilson on the work that the committee clerks and other parliamentary staff did on the bill. The bill is technical in ...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I compliment my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for their considered and intelligent scrutiny of the bill, and the clerks, who pr...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I echo the thanks that have been expressed to my fellow members of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, to our clerking team, to the officials who supp...
Mike MacKenzie
SNP
If a target such as the member describes was set, what mechanism could the Government use to ensure that it was achieved?
Patrick Harvie
Green
That goes back to the minister’s response to my earlier comments. He said that an alternative to the purely voluntary approach, which we know will not achiev...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As one of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee members who scrutinised the bill, I am happy that it will provide an improved framework and experience fo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
As I mentioned at stage 1, I am now a retired solicitor, but when in practice I undertook conveyancing work over many years. As my colleague Murdo Fraser com...
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Does Annabel Goldie agree that it should not be about just the next five years, but that there should be continual scrutiny by future ministers to ensure tha...
Annabel Goldie
Con
Yes. My remarks were prompted by the minister’s specific comments about 2017 in the debate. The critical period of five years is significant.I share the conc...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, want to put on record my thanks to the committee clerks, our adviser Professor Kenneth Reid, SPICe, all the other officials who gave us advice and al...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
This has been a useful and constructive debate. I thank all members for their contributions. The debate has demonstrated that members agree that this is an i...
John Wilson
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Fergus Ewing
SNP
The member will have to excuse me, but I really want to give the chamber some more information that I did not have time to give earlier.I understand from Reg...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
You have 20 seconds, Mr Ewing.
Fergus Ewing
SNP
In all seriousness, we believe that the offence provision in the bill is necessary. As the overwhelming majority of solicitors are honest, they will be neith...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Minister, two weeks ago, you cast aspersions on my virtues when we were together in New York; now here you are, referring to Miss Goldie in such terms. One o...