Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 14 March 2012
14 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As the convener of the Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee, I have an interest in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill dovetailing with the Agricultural Holdings (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill and the Long Leases (Scotland) Bill, both of which are before my committee. Registration of aspects of leasing are as important as registration of ownership, and there has been much debate on both bills about ensuring that that happens. It is in our interests that the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee bears that in mind at stage 2 and ensures that the bills dovetail.
I turn to the excellent report from the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee and highlight the issue of Ordnance Survey maps. The 6in:1 mile map—or the 1:10,000 map as it is now called—was used for the whole of the Highlands and Islands for many years. It is not up to scratch; it never was. It was not fit for purpose when we were having these debates in the mid-1990s, at a time when land registration was 20 years old. Did anyone ask Ordnance Survey to step up to the plate and get mapping properly? It is a union dividend for us that large areas of Scotland are inadequately mapped by Ordnance Survey. One per cent of the titles of Scotland are affected by the 1:10,000 scale, but of those, many are the largest estates that have never been registered except in sasines, and they are not properly mapped at all.
Why is that important? Crofting communities have a right to buy, and such communities have to provide details in mapped form of the area of which they wish to take ownership. We would therefore expect it to be necessary for landowners themselves to have their land mapped in a modern and up-to-date fashion. There is a direct link here between those issues, which is part of this Parliament’s wishes. I know that the Labour Party did not wish to see a map-based register for crofting, but as many people who are registering leases for farms and so on have to do that, Labour should recognise now that landowners should be registered and that crofters eventually will be, too. There has been no secondary legislation on that yet, but it is a point.
Annabel Goldie and others have mentioned fees. I suggest that, for a large estate, the price for registration is like selling off a couple of housing plots. Large estates are not short of capital for registration, so why are we not making the point that they have got the benefit now of voluntary registration at a reduced ad valorem rate? They should get on with it, or we should find means to ensure that we use the research area approach of the bill not just to apply to cities but to apply to areas in which communities may wish to use the right to buy, because they will have to have accurate maps to do that.
The bill is an excellent start, but it is important for Scotland’s future that the timeframe for the completion of the register is speeded up, because 30 or 40 years might not be a long time in land ownership, but it most certainly is when it comes to getting an up-to-date register that people can access electronically. Registers of Scotland’s mapping working group should ask Ordnance Survey when it will step up to the plate. We know that, during the Thatcher era, Ordnance Survey was cut back and was made to be a business, but it is supposed to be a service. Instead of seeking other means, we should demand that that service is there for us to use in future.
14:40
I turn to the excellent report from the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee and highlight the issue of Ordnance Survey maps. The 6in:1 mile map—or the 1:10,000 map as it is now called—was used for the whole of the Highlands and Islands for many years. It is not up to scratch; it never was. It was not fit for purpose when we were having these debates in the mid-1990s, at a time when land registration was 20 years old. Did anyone ask Ordnance Survey to step up to the plate and get mapping properly? It is a union dividend for us that large areas of Scotland are inadequately mapped by Ordnance Survey. One per cent of the titles of Scotland are affected by the 1:10,000 scale, but of those, many are the largest estates that have never been registered except in sasines, and they are not properly mapped at all.
Why is that important? Crofting communities have a right to buy, and such communities have to provide details in mapped form of the area of which they wish to take ownership. We would therefore expect it to be necessary for landowners themselves to have their land mapped in a modern and up-to-date fashion. There is a direct link here between those issues, which is part of this Parliament’s wishes. I know that the Labour Party did not wish to see a map-based register for crofting, but as many people who are registering leases for farms and so on have to do that, Labour should recognise now that landowners should be registered and that crofters eventually will be, too. There has been no secondary legislation on that yet, but it is a point.
Annabel Goldie and others have mentioned fees. I suggest that, for a large estate, the price for registration is like selling off a couple of housing plots. Large estates are not short of capital for registration, so why are we not making the point that they have got the benefit now of voluntary registration at a reduced ad valorem rate? They should get on with it, or we should find means to ensure that we use the research area approach of the bill not just to apply to cities but to apply to areas in which communities may wish to use the right to buy, because they will have to have accurate maps to do that.
The bill is an excellent start, but it is important for Scotland’s future that the timeframe for the completion of the register is speeded up, because 30 or 40 years might not be a long time in land ownership, but it most certainly is when it comes to getting an up-to-date register that people can access electronically. Registers of Scotland’s mapping working group should ask Ordnance Survey when it will step up to the plate. We know that, during the Thatcher era, Ordnance Survey was cut back and was made to be a business, but it is supposed to be a service. Instead of seeking other means, we should demand that that service is there for us to use in future.
14:40
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02304, in the name of Fergus Ewing, on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill.13:34
The Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism (Fergus Ewing)
SNP
I thank the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee for its thorough and collaborative scrutiny of the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. I also thank the ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I declare my interest as a member of the Law Society of Scotland.As convener of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, I mention that the committee recom...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I will consider further and respond in due course on reduced fees for voluntary registration. Does Mr Fraser agree that there is an incentive for voluntary r...
Murdo Fraser
Con
The minister has made a fair point. In his opening speech he mentioned the proposal to introduce time-and-line fees. Higher costs would potentially act as a ...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I do not want to interrupt the flow of Mr Fraser’s speech too frequently, but I ask him—as one solicitor to another—whether it is fair to say that the high c...
Murdo Fraser
Con
That is a fair point, although I am sure that when Mr Ewing was in practice he was very reasonable in the fees that he charged—as, indeed, was I.The offence ...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I associate myself with the thanks that Murdo Fraser and the minister offered to those who provided evidence to and assisted the committee. The bill is large...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
Is it the Labour Party’s position that only companies or individuals who are resident and domiciled in Scotland should be able to buy land in Scotland?
Rhoda Grant
Lab
No. If Mr MacKenzie listens to the points that I will make, he might understand where I am coming from.The land reform legislation was based on the need to k...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
It is a challenge to bring some verve and spice to the issue of land registration. The subject does not brim with pulsating excitement. Things were a lot mor...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We now move to the open debate. I remind all speakers that they have a fairly tight 10-minute time limit. Interruption. I am sorry: I meant to say four minut...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I speak as a member of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, which held a number of evidence-gathering sessions as part of its detailed examination of t...
John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the clerks for the support that they gave me as a new member of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee when I started in January, just after the C...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. Although I am what Murdo Fraser has described as “a non-lawyer”—I wonder whether that is a Latin...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As one of the non-lawyers on the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee, it was with a sense of trepidation that I started out on my journey through scrutiny ...
Hanzala Malik (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
This is an interesting topic. I have witnessed huge amounts of difficulty overseas, in particular for farmers who have smallholdings. When an inheritance has...
Jean Urquhart (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
When I offered to speak in today’s debate, I was aware that I would be doing so more from a sense of how important the bill is than from a position of taking...
James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill. As someone who is not a member of the Economy, Energy and Tou...
Paul Wheelhouse (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I should declare an interest. I worked for BiGGAR Economics when it did the piece of work for Registers of Scotland on the economic impact of its proposals. ...
Rob Gibson (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
SNP
As the convener of the Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee, I have an interest in the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Bill dovetailing w...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I strongly commend Rob Gibson for much of what he said. In addition, I thank everyone who contributed to the committee’s work, in whatever capacity.My fellow...
Annabel Goldie
Con
It is difficult in an essentially technical debate to introduce ideas and concepts without risking repetition. I prefer to comment briefly on one or two poin...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I acknowledge that, although the bill is largely technical, most of its proposals have been welcomed and are required if we are to improve land registration....
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I have thoroughly enjoyed the debate. There have been useful contributions from all sides. If I do not reply in my short speech to some of the suggestions an...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I will carry on for a bit, if I may.Mr Harvie acknowledged that point, as did others. I can tell him that we have had some discussions on the matter and offi...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will the minister allow his officials to have discussions with Opposition members prior to stage 2, so that we understand the limits of what the Government t...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I always do that.Why are reserves necessary? First, because the keeper cannot have access to consolidated funds; she must balance her budget. She does not ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
You have another four minutes.
Fergus Ewing
SNP
Oh good. I thought that I needed to finish.