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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 March 2012

15 Mar 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
National Library of Scotland Bill: Stage 1
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Annabel Goldie, who is, sadly, not well today, and thank my colleague Alex Johnstone, who has come into the hot seat at short notice.

We are fully supportive of the need to modernise the legislative process so that we can both maintain and enhance the NLS. As the cabinet secretary said, it is a remarkable asset and we pay tribute, as other members have done, to all who are involved in its work, and to the large numbers of the public who are increasingly enthusiastic supporters of it. In the past, some have called the NLS the library of last resort—to be used only when people have unsuccessfully searched sources elsewhere—but that is no longer an applicable definition. That is very good news, but it obviously brings challenges.

We fully recognise the need in a world of fast-changing technology to put in place structures that will help to create not only more efficient administration, but a better system of access to the library’s archive, and better coherence and collaboration with the other national archives. To allow things to remain as they are is simply not an option, so we support the Scottish Government and the other parties in their overall endeavours on the bill.

Throughout the committee’s evidence taking we were struck by the professionalism, dedication and expertise of all those who are involved with the NLS, and by the careful thought that they had given to the future working of the institution and its role in modern Scotland. That expertise is in many cases unique, and brings degrees of specialism that are not seen elsewhere. It was good to hear that the cabinet secretary will lodge an amendment at stage 2 to reflect that, because there is no doubt that the committee and the witnesses who came to it were overwhelmingly of the opinion that the smaller end of the proposed new NLS board numbers was, indeed, too small. I heard what the cabinet secretary said when she came to the committee about the possibility of co-options on to the board. It is, of course, correct to do that and that option will remain. However, I was struck by just how desirable an aim it is to have a wide range of experience on the board, so it is good that the cabinet secretary has confirmed that she is looking at that again.

I note, too, that the cabinet secretary has stated that the Scottish Government is keen on the principle that the governance of major institutions be considerably streamlined and be represented by smaller boards. Indeed, I think that the cabinet secretary said at committee that the Scottish Government is not in favour of large boards. I suggest that what is more appropriate is not so much a generalisation about the size of boards, but what works to the best advantage of the institution and the public that it serves. I fully understand that the current size of the board makes it unwieldy, but we should not go to the other extreme.

Before leaving the issue of the board, I urge the cabinet secretary to heed the advice of several stakeholders who are anxious for a smooth transition from the existing board to the new board, which will be very important if we are to carry with us the trust of all those involved.

A second major concern, which I think will continue as we debate the bill is—as the committee convener said—the intended extent of the powers of ministerial direction. There was a lack of detail and clarity in the policy memorandum about the precise nature of the intended ministerial power and about whether the power could conflict with areas of NLS management where ministers have no powers. There appear to be inconsistencies in some of the proposed changes. In fact, the chief executive was a little uncertain about how the promotion of greater collaboration and diversity would work when there seemed to be little comment in the policy memorandum about the detail of the proposed new powers.

The rest of the education, lifelong learning and culture brief shows that the Government has a record of wanting to increase ministerial power. College and university governance is just one example of that. I can understand that there are some reasons why that might lead to better governance, but I am not entirely comfortable with its being a general principle. We need a cast-iron guarantee that the moves in the bill are not simply about increasing ministerial powers but about greater efficiency for the institution.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02332, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the National Library of Scotland Bill.14:55
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the general principles of the National Library of Scotland Bill. I thank the people who gave evidence and I thank the conv...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
On behalf of the Education and Culture Committee, I make clear from the outset our unanimous support for the general principles of the National Library of Sc...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I was going to whisper at the start of my speech, but that would have been a cheap and obvious libraries joke, and I would never indulge in such a thing.It i...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
In my opening remarks, I indicated that I would be willing to move the bottom end from seven up to nine. The range of board membership will be very similar t...
Neil Findlay Lab
That is helpful.Reform is also about meeting challenges and embracing wider societal and technological change, and it is clear that the NLS has been proactiv...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
With regard to a number of points that Neil Findlay has raised, it is important to look again at the functions of the NLS. If it did anything to jeopardise a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
You must come to a close.
Neil Findlay Lab
Parts of the bill are to be welcomed, but others raise questions about the role of libraries in general and the specific nature of the NLS. I raise those iss...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I apologise on behalf of my colleague Annabel Goldie, who is, sadly, not well today, and thank my colleague Alex Johnstone, who has come into the hot seat at...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I remind the member that for the Public Service Reform (Scotland) Bill the Conservatives lodged an amendment that would have given ministers greater power to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You are in your last minute, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.I accept what the cabinet secretary said. Others were also a bit concerned about the issue. Ministerial power should be about be...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am a proud Lanarkshire lass who was born in Motherwell, which is one of the burghs that were blessed with the gift of a Carnegie library. I spent much of m...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
The National Library of Scotland is an extremely important resource for the people of Scotland, so any changes to its structure and operating procedures must...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I will come back to the issue of charitable status in my closing remarks, but I ask the member to acknowledge that some of the comments that he referred to w...
Mark Griffin Lab
I take that on board, and I appreciate that OSCR has confirmed that the power of direction would not impede the library having charitable status.However, the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am glad to hear it. I need to ask you to finish.
Mark Griffin Lab
That issue should be at the forefront of any changes to the library, and I hope that the cabinet secretary and the new board will give it due consideration.1...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
I begin by making two declarations of interest: as many members know, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals; and,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We are slightly tight for time, so I ask members to stick to their six minutes, please, if they can.15:49
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As I worked in libraries for many years, I start by putting on record my appreciation for the good work of libraries across Scotland and for the National Lib...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) SNP
I declare an interest, which has already been alluded to. As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, I am one of the ex officio members of the board of the National L...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I congratulate the cabinet secretary on the tone and content of her speech, much of which anticipated comments that I was going to make, and I welcome the an...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Little did I think when I got up this morning that I would find myself speaking in a debate on the National Library of Scotland. Nevertheless, to my surprise...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Can you come to a conclusion, please?
Alex Johnstone Con
Indeed. Much more could be said on the subject, but given my lack of expertise it would make good sense for me to thank the cabinet secretary for her concess...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Given the lack of time, I am grateful to you.16:13
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
This has been a consensual debate, which has reflected the consensual nature of the committee’s discussions. I welcome Alex Johnstone to the world of culture...
Fiona Hyslop SNP
I thank the members who have spoken in the debate, and I would say that Alex Johnstone is living testament to the fact that libraries broaden the mind. I am ...