Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 March 2011
16 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Local Government Finance (Scotland) Amendment (No 2) Order 2011
We will not block the council tax freeze and we will vote in the same way as we have done on previous local government finance orders. We register our concern about some of the implications, but the measures will not be blocked by Parliament. I did not enjoy being asked in the Finance Committee to welcome the policy, which I think was the subject of the vote to which Mr Brownlee alluded.
It is interesting that one of the few things that was talked about at the SNP conference at the weekend was how the SNP has delivered the council tax freeze in every year of the session. Of course, the SNP did not want to keep that commitment, as it was supposed to be only a stop-gap measure in advance of replacement of the council tax with a local income tax—a policy for which Liberal Democrats are still arguing. The SNP failed even to introduce to the Parliament proposed legislation on council tax abolition, so it is interesting that the SNP now claims that the council tax freeze is one of its biggest promises kept.
The problem of fairness comes into play and simply cannot be denied. One of the biggest concerns is that those who are on the biggest incomes would pay more under a local income tax, but are the ones who gain more through the council tax freeze, as they are likely to live in the biggest homes.
We speak to constituents about the fairness of the policy. Time and again it is worth repeating that I am fully aware that freezing the council tax helps many families. I am fully aware of the pressures on their household incomes and of the fact that many view the freeze as being a contribution to dealing with those pressures.
However, we must consider the people in the largest homes, who gain the most, and the people in the lowest income brackets, who are not gaining. The figures are straightforward. There are 130,000 households on low incomes that live in band A properties. If a family’s income is less than £15,000, they will have gained not one penny from the £700 million tax cut. If we use the deflators that the Government uses and to which the cabinet secretary has referred, those in the biggest houses—such as those in band G, which had average council tax bills of £1,900 in 2009—are making a cumulative saving of £138 a year. Those who are on the lowest incomes gain nothing and those who are among the highest incomes gain £138 a year.
I asked the cabinet secretary specifically about the distribution of the £700 million between the lowest and the highest—between those in band A and those in band H—because I am fully aware of the figures for band D. I wanted him to acknowledge on the record the situation between band A and band H, but he chose not to, which was a telling omission.
The SNP has blamed reductions in council services on everyone else, when the council tax freeze has caused a revenue shortfall of £700 million. We know from lecture after lecture that the Scottish budget is fixed and that, if we come up with spending plans, we must tell the Government where the money for them would come from. Given that, I presume that £700 million has been saved elsewhere in the Scottish budget to offset the council tax freeze.
We will abstain on the motions. I know that the Parliament will support them, but it is worth recognising that the policy is not fair.
17:12
It is interesting that one of the few things that was talked about at the SNP conference at the weekend was how the SNP has delivered the council tax freeze in every year of the session. Of course, the SNP did not want to keep that commitment, as it was supposed to be only a stop-gap measure in advance of replacement of the council tax with a local income tax—a policy for which Liberal Democrats are still arguing. The SNP failed even to introduce to the Parliament proposed legislation on council tax abolition, so it is interesting that the SNP now claims that the council tax freeze is one of its biggest promises kept.
The problem of fairness comes into play and simply cannot be denied. One of the biggest concerns is that those who are on the biggest incomes would pay more under a local income tax, but are the ones who gain more through the council tax freeze, as they are likely to live in the biggest homes.
We speak to constituents about the fairness of the policy. Time and again it is worth repeating that I am fully aware that freezing the council tax helps many families. I am fully aware of the pressures on their household incomes and of the fact that many view the freeze as being a contribution to dealing with those pressures.
However, we must consider the people in the largest homes, who gain the most, and the people in the lowest income brackets, who are not gaining. The figures are straightforward. There are 130,000 households on low incomes that live in band A properties. If a family’s income is less than £15,000, they will have gained not one penny from the £700 million tax cut. If we use the deflators that the Government uses and to which the cabinet secretary has referred, those in the biggest houses—such as those in band G, which had average council tax bills of £1,900 in 2009—are making a cumulative saving of £138 a year. Those who are on the lowest incomes gain nothing and those who are among the highest incomes gain £138 a year.
I asked the cabinet secretary specifically about the distribution of the £700 million between the lowest and the highest—between those in band A and those in band H—because I am fully aware of the figures for band D. I wanted him to acknowledge on the record the situation between band A and band H, but he chose not to, which was a telling omission.
The SNP has blamed reductions in council services on everyone else, when the council tax freeze has caused a revenue shortfall of £700 million. We know from lecture after lecture that the Scottish budget is fixed and that, if we come up with spending plans, we must tell the Government where the money for them would come from. Given that, I presume that £700 million has been saved elsewhere in the Scottish budget to offset the council tax freeze.
We will abstain on the motions. I know that the Parliament will support them, but it is worth recognising that the policy is not fair.
17:12
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motions S3M-8130 and S3M-8140, in the name of John Swinney, on the Local Government Finance (Scotland) Amendment Ord...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
On 10 February, Parliament approved the Local Government Finance (Scotland) Order 2011, which enabled Scotland’s local authorities to set next year’s revenue...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
Is the cabinet secretary very pleased by how that £700 million has been distributed between the wealthiest people living in the biggest houses and the poores...
John Swinney
SNP
It is clear that the council tax freeze has provided welcome assistance to people who are facing severe financial challenges. For example, since 2007-08, the...
Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
Lab
When we previously debated a local government finance order, on 10 February, local authorities throughout the country were in the throes of putting together ...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP)
SNP
I am curious and slightly stuck for words. Can the member tell me whether or not the Labour Party supports the council tax freeze? The proposals that have be...
Michael McMahon
Lab
Mr FitzPatrick should have stayed stuck for words. We have made it absolutely clear that we have always objected to the underfunding of the council tax freez...
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con)
Con
That is a terrifying prospect.Given that we vote in the budget debate in February, I always wondered why we regularly come back to consider such orders. I ap...
Michael McMahon
Lab
Does the member recognise that, in the interim, we have had a recession and the council tax freeze? Does he accept that the landscape of local government has...
Derek Brownlee
Con
I am glad that someone on the Labour benches has finally admitted that the recession happened on that party’s watch, because Labour members have been keen to...
Michael McMahon
Lab
It is underfunded.
Derek Brownlee
Con
Oh—it is underfunded, which I presume is why, in 2009, Mr McMahon said:“The SNP Government is ripping off local councils by £270 million.”Are we to take it t...
Jeremy Purvis
LD
When the evolving debates began, I think that the Conservative policy was to halve the council tax for all pensioners. For the record, and so that I understa...
Derek Brownlee
Con
If I remember correctly, the Liberal Democrats were committed to a local income tax, but Ross Finnie has said that they would not introduce it in the next fi...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
We will not block the council tax freeze and we will vote in the same way as we have done on previous local government finance orders. We register our concer...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP)
SNP
The orders will put in place the last piece of council funding for 2011-12, which will ensure that council tax is frozen across Scotland for a fourth consecu...
Michael McMahon
Lab
Some people might benefit from the freeze, but is Joe FitzPatrick concerned about people who rent small band A and band B houses from their councils and whos...
Joe FitzPatrick
SNP
I had intended to congratulate the Labour Party on doing one of the most fantastic U-turns to support the council tax freeze, but I am sorry—Labour members c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I need to stop the member there, I am afraid.17:16
Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to be able to take part in today’s debate. Everyone in Scotland is affected by local authorities’ ability to deliver quality local services, so ...
Derek Brownlee
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Mulligan
Lab
Let me make this point first.To understand the pressure that local authorities are under, we need only consider the kind of cuts that they are having to intr...
Derek Brownlee
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Mulligan
Lab
I will finish these examples and then let Mr Brownlee in.The council increased those charges by between 28 and 44 per cent. The cost of a half-day visit will...
Derek Brownlee
Con
The member made a point about the council tax freeze having been underfunded consistently since its introduction, and the Labour Party is committed not only ...
Mary Mulligan
Lab
We will come to that, Mr Brownlee.The other point that puzzles me—Mr McMahon mentioned this too—is that, although the SNP Government staunchly defends the co...
John Swinney
SNP
Mr Purvis made a point about a £700 million revenue shortfall, which could have been spent in other ways. I simply point out to Mr Purvis that, in the budget...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Order. We need to have fewer conversations in the chamber, please.
John Swinney
SNP
I wonder where Mrs Mulligan was the day when it was carefully considered at the policy forum of the Labour Party to undertake that spectacular U-turn.That br...
Michael McMahon
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary give way?