Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 March 2011
16 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Records (Scotland) Bill
I thank members for an informed, interesting and constructive debate. The debate demonstrates the extent to which members agree on the importance of and good intentions behind the bill, and the process has demonstrated how we can work collectively to ensure that we produce good legislation. I hope that future committees of the Parliament will reflect on practice in relation to this bill’s progress, in particular.
I am struck, as I was at stage 1, by members’ recognition of the importance of the bill, particularly in safeguarding the interests of vulnerable people. Although the bill cannot put right what has gone wrong in the past, it can help us to avoid the same problems in future, as Elizabeth Smith said. We owe it to former residents of care homes and survivors of abuse, and indeed to all future generations in this country, to make the necessary improvements to the way in which public authorities deal with records, to safeguard people’s rights and identities as individuals—Pauline McNeill made that important point—and to secure our collective memory.
It is my sincere hope that, in future, people who have been in care will never again experience the grief and frustration of discovering that records about their earlier lives are incomplete, inaccurate or simply not there. Kenny Gibson provided a poignant reminder of the human aspect of record keeping.
Given tight Parliament and committee timetables, I had to prioritise legislation. Although I wanted—and still want—to legislate to improve provision on the National Library of Scotland, for example, the human and moral dimension of the issue meant that the Public Records (Scotland) Bill had to take priority.
It is important to recognise that public records, as part of our collective memory, form the basis for individual rights and obligations. The bill will strengthen transparency and accountability of public authorities and it will help to secure the records of vulnerable people. It aims to create a common and consistent standard of record keeping, which will protect the rights of all members of the public by ensuring that records and information about them are managed properly.
The opportunity for members of all parties in the Parliament to acknowledge the importance of record keeping has been a plus in the bill process. As Hugh O’Donnell said, record keeping is perhaps not the most high-profile issue, but without records much cannot be done, or done properly.
I agree with some of the concerns about common good asset registers, which local authorities should keep. The bill creates a framework for good and effective record keeping. However, there is an issue about how we help local authorities to ensure that they include public records of their common good assets in their records management plans. Members from all parties raised that issue, but we need further legislation to make it happen. We are creating an agenda for the next parliamentary session in that regard.
I thank members of the Parliament and all the members of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their constructive comments and invaluable support during the bill’s passage. Moreover, I extend my thanks to other organisations—particularly COSLA and, in the voluntary sector, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Barnardo’s Scotland, Aberlour Child Care Trust, Children 1st and Action for Children—for their input. They all made constructive contributions, and I look forward to including them in continued dialogue.
Dialogue with stakeholders throughout the process resulted in consensus on a number of important issues. The keeper’s powers to agree and return an authority’s records management plan, and the impact on contractors’ records, remained issues of concern throughout the process. I will clarify one matter. The keeper must issue guidance and a model records management plan to authorities. The guidance and the model plan must cover contractors’ records where those contractors perform a function of the authority. How contractors’ records are managed is likely to be closely based on the contractual terms that the authority and the contractor agree.
Therefore, the bill strikes a delicate balance. Although the guidance and the model plan will cover contractors’ records, I do not consider it appropriate for the keeper to go further and seek to dictate how authorities and contractors regulate their relationships. The bill places the onus on authorities to manage their records. It does not impose duties on contractors; nor does it interfere, or give the keeper power to interfere, in the existing relationships between authorities and contractors. The terms under which a contractor may carry out functions on behalf of an authority are for those two parties to agree separately. I consider that the bill fulfils the Government’s stated intention that the legislation should be light touch.
It was clear from responses to the original consultation and discussions with stakeholders that the dissemination of guidance by the keeper will be crucial to the successful implementation of the bill. Claire Baker made that point. Any guidance that is issued will be developed in partnership with stakeholders.
To that end, a new stakeholder forum has been set up in which those issues are being discussed and addressed. The keeper views that forum as integral to the process of formulating and agreeing guidance and the model plan. He and his colleagues have been immensely impressed by the contributions that the voluntary sector and authorities have already made and they look forward to working further with them.
I thank the keeper of the records of Scotland and my bill team in the National Archives of Scotland for their hard work throughout the legislative process. The bill team demonstrated responsiveness and engagement. Not only has that resulted in a better bill, but it will improve the bill’s implementation.
As I noted in my opening speech, the bill addresses problems with the management of public records and key findings of Tom Shaw’s important report. It will make improvements in existing record keeping and ensure that, where important records are created, there are proper mechanisms and structures in place for accountability for them and for their future preservation. I am confident that the new legislation will provide a framework that will allow sufficient flexibility so that the needs of individual sectors can be addressed well into the future.
In voting for the bill, we reaffirm our commitment to the appropriate care, management and future preservation of our unique public records and recognise their importance to organisations, individuals and the wider Scottish community.
This might be an opportune moment to remind members that Scotland is known not only nationally but internationally for its ability to keep records well. In the previous debate, which was on the Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill, the importance of record keeping was mentioned. The historical record keeping of medical information in particular is one of the reasons why we are at a competitive advantage in life sciences and other developing industries.
Record keeping reaches beyond the bureaucratic—it can have other impacts. It is important for this generation and future generations of Scots. The bill’s approach is attracting attention from other jurisdictions around the world. I ask that members support the motion to pass the Public Records (Scotland) Bill.
I am struck, as I was at stage 1, by members’ recognition of the importance of the bill, particularly in safeguarding the interests of vulnerable people. Although the bill cannot put right what has gone wrong in the past, it can help us to avoid the same problems in future, as Elizabeth Smith said. We owe it to former residents of care homes and survivors of abuse, and indeed to all future generations in this country, to make the necessary improvements to the way in which public authorities deal with records, to safeguard people’s rights and identities as individuals—Pauline McNeill made that important point—and to secure our collective memory.
It is my sincere hope that, in future, people who have been in care will never again experience the grief and frustration of discovering that records about their earlier lives are incomplete, inaccurate or simply not there. Kenny Gibson provided a poignant reminder of the human aspect of record keeping.
Given tight Parliament and committee timetables, I had to prioritise legislation. Although I wanted—and still want—to legislate to improve provision on the National Library of Scotland, for example, the human and moral dimension of the issue meant that the Public Records (Scotland) Bill had to take priority.
It is important to recognise that public records, as part of our collective memory, form the basis for individual rights and obligations. The bill will strengthen transparency and accountability of public authorities and it will help to secure the records of vulnerable people. It aims to create a common and consistent standard of record keeping, which will protect the rights of all members of the public by ensuring that records and information about them are managed properly.
The opportunity for members of all parties in the Parliament to acknowledge the importance of record keeping has been a plus in the bill process. As Hugh O’Donnell said, record keeping is perhaps not the most high-profile issue, but without records much cannot be done, or done properly.
I agree with some of the concerns about common good asset registers, which local authorities should keep. The bill creates a framework for good and effective record keeping. However, there is an issue about how we help local authorities to ensure that they include public records of their common good assets in their records management plans. Members from all parties raised that issue, but we need further legislation to make it happen. We are creating an agenda for the next parliamentary session in that regard.
I thank members of the Parliament and all the members of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their constructive comments and invaluable support during the bill’s passage. Moreover, I extend my thanks to other organisations—particularly COSLA and, in the voluntary sector, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, Barnardo’s Scotland, Aberlour Child Care Trust, Children 1st and Action for Children—for their input. They all made constructive contributions, and I look forward to including them in continued dialogue.
Dialogue with stakeholders throughout the process resulted in consensus on a number of important issues. The keeper’s powers to agree and return an authority’s records management plan, and the impact on contractors’ records, remained issues of concern throughout the process. I will clarify one matter. The keeper must issue guidance and a model records management plan to authorities. The guidance and the model plan must cover contractors’ records where those contractors perform a function of the authority. How contractors’ records are managed is likely to be closely based on the contractual terms that the authority and the contractor agree.
Therefore, the bill strikes a delicate balance. Although the guidance and the model plan will cover contractors’ records, I do not consider it appropriate for the keeper to go further and seek to dictate how authorities and contractors regulate their relationships. The bill places the onus on authorities to manage their records. It does not impose duties on contractors; nor does it interfere, or give the keeper power to interfere, in the existing relationships between authorities and contractors. The terms under which a contractor may carry out functions on behalf of an authority are for those two parties to agree separately. I consider that the bill fulfils the Government’s stated intention that the legislation should be light touch.
It was clear from responses to the original consultation and discussions with stakeholders that the dissemination of guidance by the keeper will be crucial to the successful implementation of the bill. Claire Baker made that point. Any guidance that is issued will be developed in partnership with stakeholders.
To that end, a new stakeholder forum has been set up in which those issues are being discussed and addressed. The keeper views that forum as integral to the process of formulating and agreeing guidance and the model plan. He and his colleagues have been immensely impressed by the contributions that the voluntary sector and authorities have already made and they look forward to working further with them.
I thank the keeper of the records of Scotland and my bill team in the National Archives of Scotland for their hard work throughout the legislative process. The bill team demonstrated responsiveness and engagement. Not only has that resulted in a better bill, but it will improve the bill’s implementation.
As I noted in my opening speech, the bill addresses problems with the management of public records and key findings of Tom Shaw’s important report. It will make improvements in existing record keeping and ensure that, where important records are created, there are proper mechanisms and structures in place for accountability for them and for their future preservation. I am confident that the new legislation will provide a framework that will allow sufficient flexibility so that the needs of individual sectors can be addressed well into the future.
In voting for the bill, we reaffirm our commitment to the appropriate care, management and future preservation of our unique public records and recognise their importance to organisations, individuals and the wider Scottish community.
This might be an opportune moment to remind members that Scotland is known not only nationally but internationally for its ability to keep records well. In the previous debate, which was on the Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill, the importance of record keeping was mentioned. The historical record keeping of medical information in particular is one of the reasons why we are at a competitive advantage in life sciences and other developing industries.
Record keeping reaches beyond the bureaucratic—it can have other impacts. It is important for this generation and future generations of Scots. The bill’s approach is attracting attention from other jurisdictions around the world. I ask that members support the motion to pass the Public Records (Scotland) Bill.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8129, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on the Public Records (Scotland) Bill.11:32
The Minister for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
It gives me great pleasure to open the stage 3 debate on the Public Records (Scotland) Bill and to invite members to agree to pass the bill. I thank members ...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
It might have taken all of four years, but with less than a week to go before dissolution I am pleased to conclude the Education, Lifelong Learning and Cultu...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
To have taken part in this legislative process has been an interesting and enlightening experience, even if the passing of the Public Records (Scotland) Bill...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)
LD
I add my thanks to those already expressed to the clerks to the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee for their assistance during the passage of...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
I am delighted to join this morning’s love-in—sorry, debate. I am glad to see so much consensus. The bill shows what can happen when everyone works together ...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to speak in the stage 3 debate on the Public Records (Scotland) Bill. Although there was strong support for the bill and the changes that it set...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I now move to the winding-up speeches.11:58
Hugh O’Donnell (Central Scotland) (LD)
LD
This will perhaps be an easier task than is often the case with winding-up speeches. Many members who are not in the chamber have missed a trick in relation ...
Kenneth Gibson
SNP
It is cheaper than buying a lottery ticket.
Hugh O’Donnell
LD
Thank you, Mr Gibson.It is apparent from such programmes that there are inconsistencies in how local authorities and other public bodies keep records. The Pu...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
If I have unwittingly hit the record for the Opposition member who got the Government to accept the largest number of amendments to the Public Records (Scotl...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
Lab
All credit to Elizabeth Smith for breaking all those records—and for getting me to my feet earlier than I had imagined.The Public Records (Scotland) Bill is ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I thank members for an informed, interesting and constructive debate. The debate demonstrates the extent to which members agree on the importance of and good...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Before we move on to the next item of business, I remind all members in the chamber and those who are watching and listening in their offices that the extrao...