Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 March 2011
16 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill
As I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I come to the bill and the debate as a comparative layman. However, I am struck by a central theme that we have heard a lot about this morning, which is what Dr Simpson referred to as whether the next of kin are content with the death certificate. Public confidence depends on whether people are content with the stated reason for death.
I go back a few years to a case that exemplifies the question of doubt. It started on the day in 1997 when the body of Kevin McLeod was pulled out of Wick harbour. Despite meetings with the police and other authorities, including the procurator fiscal, the doubt about and lack of confidence in the death certificate remains. Kevin McLeod’s death predated by two years my election as an MSP. However, like every other Highland member, I was aware of the case. Questions were raised on the matter in the chamber, but we still do not know whether Kevin McLeod accidentally fell to his death or whether he was murdered. That lack of confidence is exactly what this debate is about. I am aware that I have used an extreme example, but the failure to ascertain the facts means that Kevin McLeod’s family and friends and many people in the north of Scotland remain unhappy with the system. What we see in the bill goes a long way towards addressing the issue.
Dr Simpson mentioned training for medical professionals and procurators fiscal. I argue that such training should be extended slightly more widely than that, perhaps to include our police services. I do not wish to denigrate anyone, but doubt will remain until we can demonstrate to the public that things are being done to the highest possible standards and that our systems are watertight. We must get rid of that doubt. That is what the bill is mostly about.
I go back a few years to a case that exemplifies the question of doubt. It started on the day in 1997 when the body of Kevin McLeod was pulled out of Wick harbour. Despite meetings with the police and other authorities, including the procurator fiscal, the doubt about and lack of confidence in the death certificate remains. Kevin McLeod’s death predated by two years my election as an MSP. However, like every other Highland member, I was aware of the case. Questions were raised on the matter in the chamber, but we still do not know whether Kevin McLeod accidentally fell to his death or whether he was murdered. That lack of confidence is exactly what this debate is about. I am aware that I have used an extreme example, but the failure to ascertain the facts means that Kevin McLeod’s family and friends and many people in the north of Scotland remain unhappy with the system. What we see in the bill goes a long way towards addressing the issue.
Dr Simpson mentioned training for medical professionals and procurators fiscal. I argue that such training should be extended slightly more widely than that, perhaps to include our police services. I do not wish to denigrate anyone, but doubt will remain until we can demonstrate to the public that things are being done to the highest possible standards and that our systems are watertight. We must get rid of that doubt. That is what the bill is mostly about.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8126, in the name of Shona Robison, on the Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill.10:32
The Minister for Public Health and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
We are debating a bill that will provide us with a proportionate and robust approach to the scrutiny of death certification. The proposals will lead to a mod...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I would like to add to the minister’s thanks by thanking the witnesses who appeared before the committee. They were extremely helpful. In the Scottish Parlia...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
SNP
Committees have that effect.
Dr Simpson
Lab
Yes. Thank you, Stewart—I have lost my train of thought now.In the case of a sudden death where we did not know a lot about the patient and we did not have a...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I thank the witnesses, in particular Professor Stewart Fleming and Ishbel Gall, who scrutinised the bill effectively at all stages.I am pleased that we have ...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
The bill was interesting. When it first came before the Health and Sport Committee, there was a sense that it was a relatively simple matter and that it woul...
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP)
SNP
There is some belief that the bill is a dull affair and that it is just rather technical. However, information from death certification can have a major effe...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I am very pleased that we have reached stage 3 of the bill and that its consideration is coming to an end. I tend to disagree with Ian McKee, in that I think...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
SNP
I have a few observations to make, some of which pick up points that others have made and some of which are new. Dr Ian McKee talked about the importance of ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
That would be a sensible idea.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
In that case, I will close. Clive James’s autobiography contains the wonderful phrase,“Don’t take life seriously; you won’t get out of it alive anyway.”Today...
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
LD
As I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I come to the bill and the debate as a comparative layman. However, I am struck by a central theme th...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Does the member accept that it is not possible to eliminate all doubt from death? I say that having been close to a suicide. To this day, more than a decade ...
Jamie Stone
LD
I accept that, but the point of raising Kevin McLeod’s death was to highlight a case in which the element of doubt is unacceptably high. In a proper democrac...
Mary Scanlon
Con
Despite Stewart Stevenson’s incredible experience in business, innovation and enterprise throughout Scotland, he seems to think that modern technology is inc...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I agree with every word that Mary Scanlon has said; I merely sound a note of caution that it is sometimes more difficult than people imagine to achieve that ...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I appreciate that, but I am sure that people around Scotland like Stewart Stevenson, working in an advisory capacity, can keep everyone right.My second point...
Dr Simpson
Lab
The bill began rather like the Patient Rights (Scotland) Bill, looking rather flawed and weary, but it has been resurrected through the useful process that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Wind up, please.
Dr Simpson
Lab
We have a better bill now, although it still needs to be reviewed and we will examine the pilots as they go through. I support the passing of the bill.11:23
Shona Robison
SNP
The debate has shown that, although there are still differences of opinion on some matters, the Parliament has engaged positively with the bill and has raise...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I am trying to clarify two things. We all know that the cause of death is listed, but I have seen death certificates on which the major contributory factor i...
Shona Robison
SNP
There is a difference between that and a list of every condition, as I am sure we agree.Ross Finnie made a number of points and I am pleased that he found th...