Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 16 March 2011
16 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill
I have a few observations to make, some of which pick up points that others have made and some of which are new. Dr Ian McKee talked about the importance of death certification feeding into health care planning. That is correct, but we must not fail to take account of the need for death certification to feed into immediate response to possible epidemics. Professor Stewart Fleming did not make reference to that in his definition of the three aims of the certification process.
Ian McKee also talked—absolutely correctly—about folie à deux. It is worth saying that in aviation some 20 years ago we had precisely that situation in the cockpit, when a very senior captain would often not be told by a very junior but recently trained and high-quality first officer that they were getting it wrong. In designing the relationship between different players in the system, we must be aware of the influence that respect for experience and seniority has and must ensure that a junior person can point out freely and frankly to a more senior person that they are not up to the standard that is required. Folie à deux was killing people in aviation 20 years ago, but training has changed and it is not killing people now.
Last week, I had the very great pleasure to be in Giffnock synagogue to launch a Jewish education project on the internet. On that occasion, I received representations on the particular issues surrounding Jewish burial practice, which are equally applicable to people of the Muslim faith. It is important that we take account of the fact that those faiths use burial rather than cremation and make sure that we acknowledge that and preserve those traditions.
Rhoda Grant talked about testing. It is worth observing that testing has more limitations than one might imagine. About 30 years ago, IBM produced a computer that turned out to incorrectly multiply 10 by 10,000,008. Every other calculation appeared to be correct, but it was established that to use testing to see whether they were correct would require every model of that computer that had ever been produced to run through exhaustive tests for more than 1,000 years. It is important to get the design of the system correct.
We have heard some discussions about computers and I want to make some observations, of which members might or might not be aware, that indicate the need for some caution. For the registration of births, Registers of Scotland provides 200 characters for forenames and 50 characters for surnames. Approximately 19 per cent of current registrations are for people who have three or more forenames, so that issue is not insignificant because people have more complex names than they once had. Until a few months ago, I was refusing to take my parliamentary payslip—I was still taking the pay, of course—because my name was not right on the payslip. I am James Alexander Stewart Stevenson and the system provided for only two initials, thus omitting the initial that I use.
Joining computer systems together is often complex when we look at the metadata, to use the technical term, that are associated with information. I say that in the context of my genealogical researches on my great-grandfather who was a coal miner in Bannockburn. He first appears in the record in the 1841 census. The difficulty is that he is one of 328 Stevensons who were working in coal mining in Bannockburn in that year. Having the ability to distinguish names is very important indeed.
Equally, even if we impose rigorous standards for data collection and entry, there might be difficulties. When I worked in the Bank of Scotland, financial services legislation was introduced that required that we collect people’s dates of birth. Our tellers found themselves inhibited in asking ladies of a certain age what their date of birth was, but they had to put in a date so they just chose a random date. We ended up with something like 9 per cent of dates being 1 January. A further 2 per cent turned out to be the teller’s own birthday and, for a further small proportion, the teller simply entered that day’s date and discounted the number of years. Computer systems are not just mechanical systems; they have to interact with the human effects that often surround the collection of data.
If time permits, Presiding Officer—no; I see that you are signalling to me to wind up.
Ian McKee also talked—absolutely correctly—about folie à deux. It is worth saying that in aviation some 20 years ago we had precisely that situation in the cockpit, when a very senior captain would often not be told by a very junior but recently trained and high-quality first officer that they were getting it wrong. In designing the relationship between different players in the system, we must be aware of the influence that respect for experience and seniority has and must ensure that a junior person can point out freely and frankly to a more senior person that they are not up to the standard that is required. Folie à deux was killing people in aviation 20 years ago, but training has changed and it is not killing people now.
Last week, I had the very great pleasure to be in Giffnock synagogue to launch a Jewish education project on the internet. On that occasion, I received representations on the particular issues surrounding Jewish burial practice, which are equally applicable to people of the Muslim faith. It is important that we take account of the fact that those faiths use burial rather than cremation and make sure that we acknowledge that and preserve those traditions.
Rhoda Grant talked about testing. It is worth observing that testing has more limitations than one might imagine. About 30 years ago, IBM produced a computer that turned out to incorrectly multiply 10 by 10,000,008. Every other calculation appeared to be correct, but it was established that to use testing to see whether they were correct would require every model of that computer that had ever been produced to run through exhaustive tests for more than 1,000 years. It is important to get the design of the system correct.
We have heard some discussions about computers and I want to make some observations, of which members might or might not be aware, that indicate the need for some caution. For the registration of births, Registers of Scotland provides 200 characters for forenames and 50 characters for surnames. Approximately 19 per cent of current registrations are for people who have three or more forenames, so that issue is not insignificant because people have more complex names than they once had. Until a few months ago, I was refusing to take my parliamentary payslip—I was still taking the pay, of course—because my name was not right on the payslip. I am James Alexander Stewart Stevenson and the system provided for only two initials, thus omitting the initial that I use.
Joining computer systems together is often complex when we look at the metadata, to use the technical term, that are associated with information. I say that in the context of my genealogical researches on my great-grandfather who was a coal miner in Bannockburn. He first appears in the record in the 1841 census. The difficulty is that he is one of 328 Stevensons who were working in coal mining in Bannockburn in that year. Having the ability to distinguish names is very important indeed.
Equally, even if we impose rigorous standards for data collection and entry, there might be difficulties. When I worked in the Bank of Scotland, financial services legislation was introduced that required that we collect people’s dates of birth. Our tellers found themselves inhibited in asking ladies of a certain age what their date of birth was, but they had to put in a date so they just chose a random date. We ended up with something like 9 per cent of dates being 1 January. A further 2 per cent turned out to be the teller’s own birthday and, for a further small proportion, the teller simply entered that day’s date and discounted the number of years. Computer systems are not just mechanical systems; they have to interact with the human effects that often surround the collection of data.
If time permits, Presiding Officer—no; I see that you are signalling to me to wind up.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8126, in the name of Shona Robison, on the Certification of Death (Scotland) Bill.10:32
The Minister for Public Health and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
We are debating a bill that will provide us with a proportionate and robust approach to the scrutiny of death certification. The proposals will lead to a mod...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I would like to add to the minister’s thanks by thanking the witnesses who appeared before the committee. They were extremely helpful. In the Scottish Parlia...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
SNP
Committees have that effect.
Dr Simpson
Lab
Yes. Thank you, Stewart—I have lost my train of thought now.In the case of a sudden death where we did not know a lot about the patient and we did not have a...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I thank the witnesses, in particular Professor Stewart Fleming and Ishbel Gall, who scrutinised the bill effectively at all stages.I am pleased that we have ...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
The bill was interesting. When it first came before the Health and Sport Committee, there was a sense that it was a relatively simple matter and that it woul...
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP)
SNP
There is some belief that the bill is a dull affair and that it is just rather technical. However, information from death certification can have a major effe...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I am very pleased that we have reached stage 3 of the bill and that its consideration is coming to an end. I tend to disagree with Ian McKee, in that I think...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
SNP
I have a few observations to make, some of which pick up points that others have made and some of which are new. Dr Ian McKee talked about the importance of ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
That would be a sensible idea.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
In that case, I will close. Clive James’s autobiography contains the wonderful phrase,“Don’t take life seriously; you won’t get out of it alive anyway.”Today...
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
LD
As I am not a member of the Health and Sport Committee, I come to the bill and the debate as a comparative layman. However, I am struck by a central theme th...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Does the member accept that it is not possible to eliminate all doubt from death? I say that having been close to a suicide. To this day, more than a decade ...
Jamie Stone
LD
I accept that, but the point of raising Kevin McLeod’s death was to highlight a case in which the element of doubt is unacceptably high. In a proper democrac...
Mary Scanlon
Con
Despite Stewart Stevenson’s incredible experience in business, innovation and enterprise throughout Scotland, he seems to think that modern technology is inc...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I agree with every word that Mary Scanlon has said; I merely sound a note of caution that it is sometimes more difficult than people imagine to achieve that ...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I appreciate that, but I am sure that people around Scotland like Stewart Stevenson, working in an advisory capacity, can keep everyone right.My second point...
Dr Simpson
Lab
The bill began rather like the Patient Rights (Scotland) Bill, looking rather flawed and weary, but it has been resurrected through the useful process that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Wind up, please.
Dr Simpson
Lab
We have a better bill now, although it still needs to be reviewed and we will examine the pilots as they go through. I support the passing of the bill.11:23
Shona Robison
SNP
The debate has shown that, although there are still differences of opinion on some matters, the Parliament has engaged positively with the bill and has raise...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I am trying to clarify two things. We all know that the cause of death is listed, but I have seen death certificates on which the major contributory factor i...
Shona Robison
SNP
There is a difference between that and a list of every condition, as I am sure we agree.Ross Finnie made a number of points and I am pleased that he found th...