Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 November 2011
17 Nov 2011 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Public Sector
I begin by acknowledging the valuable contribution that the public sector makes to the economy and society in Scotland. It is that hugely valued contribution by public sector workers that makes the potential strikes so devastating, particularly for the most vulnerable. Public sector staff make their contributions in their working lifetimes, and their pensions should be based on fairness, quality and sustainability in retirement. I understand that this could be the first focused debate on public sector pensions in the Parliament, although I appreciate that we are the warm-up act for the Government’s debate on pensions in two weeks’ time, for which I fully commend the Government.
Earlier this week, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body agreed to progress to the next stage of the external security facility to ensure that democratic business continues in the Parliament despite any security threats. I hope that all parliamentarians will ensure that their duties within this democracy and Government continue on 30 November should the strikes go ahead while negotiations continue.
In five years’ time, the United Kingdom is due to spend £33 billion a year on public sector pensions. That is the same as the budget for the Scottish Parliament. Any politician who thinks that the figure can continue to rise must be explicit about where the money will come from. There is no doubt about the urgent need for reform against the background of people living much longer than when the funds were set up. Labour’s legacy was state spending of £4 for every £3 in revenue, with the UK Government having to borrow £1 in every £4 just to keep the lights on, pensions paid, teachers in schools and doctors and nurses in hospitals. That simply cannot continue, given the huge national debt, of which we are all aware.
The former Labour minister Lord Hutton reviewed pensions in the UK and concluded that there is a clear case for change. He stated:
“The responsible thing to do is to accept that because we are living longer we should work for longer.”
I also agree with Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, who set out three key tests for a fair agreement on pensions: affordability, fairness and sustainability. I believe that the current proposals, which are under negotiation, meet those three tests. While I am being consensual, I also agree with Ed Miliband, who described strike action while negotiations are on-going as a “mistake”.
Earlier this week, the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body agreed to progress to the next stage of the external security facility to ensure that democratic business continues in the Parliament despite any security threats. I hope that all parliamentarians will ensure that their duties within this democracy and Government continue on 30 November should the strikes go ahead while negotiations continue.
In five years’ time, the United Kingdom is due to spend £33 billion a year on public sector pensions. That is the same as the budget for the Scottish Parliament. Any politician who thinks that the figure can continue to rise must be explicit about where the money will come from. There is no doubt about the urgent need for reform against the background of people living much longer than when the funds were set up. Labour’s legacy was state spending of £4 for every £3 in revenue, with the UK Government having to borrow £1 in every £4 just to keep the lights on, pensions paid, teachers in schools and doctors and nurses in hospitals. That simply cannot continue, given the huge national debt, of which we are all aware.
The former Labour minister Lord Hutton reviewed pensions in the UK and concluded that there is a clear case for change. He stated:
“The responsible thing to do is to accept that because we are living longer we should work for longer.”
I also agree with Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, who set out three key tests for a fair agreement on pensions: affordability, fairness and sustainability. I believe that the current proposals, which are under negotiation, meet those three tests. While I am being consensual, I also agree with Ed Miliband, who described strike action while negotiations are on-going as a “mistake”.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-01348, in the name of Mary Scanlon, on the role of the public sector.10:31
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I begin by acknowledging the valuable contribution that the public sector makes to the economy and society in Scotland. It is that hugely valued contribution...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Scanlon
Con
I will make some progress, if the member does not mind.As recently as 2 November, the UK coalition Government placed a new offer on the table of an 8 per cen...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Scanlon
Con
I would like to give some examples so that I can put the member right.A nurse with a salary at retirement of £34,000 would receive a pension of £23,000 if th...
Richard Baker
Lab
I am glad that Mary Scanlon has given me an opportunity to make my point so that she can establish whether I am wrong before she replies to it. Mary Scanlon ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You have less than one minute, Ms Scanlon.
Mary Scanlon
Con
I appreciate that, Presiding Officer.When it comes to a cut in pension scheme benefits, the biggest cut that anyone could ever see is the £100 billion that G...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I call John Swinney to speak to and move amendment S4M-01348.2. Mr Swinney, you have seven minutes.10:41
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
It is a pleasure to speak on behalf of the Government in this debate and to begin by welcoming Mary Scanlon to her new post. This is new territory indeed—it ...
Neil Findlay
Lab
I thank Mr Swinney for mentioning the new Conservative leader. Given the nature of this debate, is he aware that not long ago the new Conservative leader was...
John Swinney
SNP
That just goes to prove that every individual has a right to protest and to strike and, moreover, to change their mind about these issues.
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I am grateful that the cabinet secretary reminds us that every individual has the right to change their mind. Will he urge the Cabinet Secretary for Parliame...
John Swinney
SNP
No, I will not encourage the cabinet secretary to change his mind, because it is entirely appropriate that Parliament sits on every day that it is due to sit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Order.
John Swinney
SNP
Before we move on to pensions, I want to spend a few moments discussing the public sector. Despite all the warm and considered words in Mary Scanlon’s openin...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Does the cabinet secretary agree that although focusing on preventative spend is all very well, what really matters is outcomes, and that that is where this ...
John Swinney
SNP
That is just complete and total rubbish. If Margaret Mitchell looks at the Government’s national performance framework, which she derided in her earlier spee...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
You must close, please.
John Swinney
SNP
The Scottish Government will firmly set out to Parliament on 30 November our principal reasons why the UK Government is taking the wrong course. We will make...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
I now call Richard Baker to speak to and move amendment S4M-01348.3. You have a very tight five minutes. We have absolutely no spare time left in this debate...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, welcome Mary Scanlon to her new post, but I must say that the Conservative motion today might be best described as a “Life on Mars” motion. While eve...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
We move to the open debate. Speeches should be a tight four minutes. Unfortunately, we will have to stop the clock on members at four minutes.10:54
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome Mary Scanlon to her new role.In speaking in support of the cabinet secretary’s amendment, I agree with him that this Trojan horse of a motion has n...
Mary Scanlon
Con
Will the member give way?
Chic Brodie
SNP
No—I have only four minutes.This smash-and-grab raid is a means of not only reducing the deficit more quickly but dismissing the sustainability of long-term ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
First of all, I thank the Tory party for lodging a very important motion that gives us the opportunity to debate something that we probably do not debate eno...
John Swinney
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Neil Findlay
Lab
I have four minutes—not a chance. It was down to the greed of the bankers and their accomplices.