Committee
Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 21 Jan 2003
21 Jan 2003 · S1 · Education, Culture and Sport Committee
Item of business
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
In preparation for today's meeting, I tried to establish just what the general principles of the bill are. Other than formally enshrining legal status for the Gaelic language and providing parity with English, I am not sure what they are. No doubt, Mr Russell will clarify them when he gives evidence.I am not sure that it would be feasible to amend the bill. Even if we were to retain the general principles—if they are as I outlined them—I am not sure that the time scale for lodging amendments would enable us to complete the process within the time available to us. I have just spoken to the Minister for Parliamentary Business—although not about the bill—who told me that she has 12 bills to go through Parliament in the nine weeks before dissolution.I would not like Michael Russell to take this the wrong way, but it seemed to take an inordinate time to publish the bill. I remember discussing it with him in March last year. I am sure that there are good reasons for that delay—having introduced a member's bill, I know the meticulous way in which the parliamentary draftspeople look at members' bills—but that is an issue.I hope that it will be possible to introduce in the near future a Gaelic language bill that is perhaps narrower and more precise than the bill that is before us. One problem with the bill is the way in which it deals with the section on the ombudsman: all the emphasis seems to be on complaining and on redress for people's grievances, but such an approach is unnecessary.I do not think that there is evidence to support the view that people believe if only a language bill was on the statute book and Gaelic had legal status, they would be able to have their children educated in Gaelic-medium education or feel more secure about the future of Gaelic. In evidence, I plead the Executive's record over the past three and a half years.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Convener:
Lab
I welcome Mike Watson, Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport, and Douglas Ansdell, head of the Gaelic unit in the Scottish Executive education department. ...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mike Watson):
Lab
Bob Irvine has been called away on other business and is unable to attend. Thank you for inviting us to give evidence on the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill....
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
I thank the minister for his opening statement, but I want to press him a little on what he said. Everyone, including the bill's sponsor, agrees that it is f...
Mike Watson:
Lab
In preparation for today's meeting, I tried to establish just what the general principles of the bill are. Other than formally enshrining legal status for th...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
I accept entirely that legislation is not the panacea that people sometimes view it as. However, the time scales and the time that is available are not neces...
Mike Watson:
Lab
The bill is certainly restrictive. I have discussed the matter with Michael Russell, so I understand why it was drawn up in that way. In my discussions with ...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
You said in your opening remarks that Gaelic has official status, but we have heard evidence that agencies such as the national lottery people do not give gr...
Mike Watson:
Lab
That issue was raised with me by Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Àraich, the pre-schools organisation, whose representatives came to see me about three months ago. I...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
The problem would be solved if there was an act that said, "Gaelic is an official language of Scotland." I have suggested to Michael Russell that, if the bil...
Mike Watson:
Lab
The idea of a one-line act was mentioned to me by members of Bòrd na Gàidhlig as a possible way forward for the future. I do not deny that there is an anomal...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
Just before I asked my first question, you went some way to answering the next question that I was going to ask. Do you foresee a Gaelic act of some sort in ...
Mike Watson:
Lab
Like members of other parties, I am involved in discussions with colleagues on our manifesto. I have argued the case that there should be a Gaelic language a...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I would like to expand on what Jackie Baillie said about the gap between what the Executive feels and what the bill proposes. Your written evidence is clear ...
Mike Watson:
Lab
Secure status can be achieved only by ensuring that more people learn to speak the language as a living language and not just as a hobby. It is particularly ...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
The evidence shows that the number of Gaelic speakers is not rising fast enough to save the language, and that the kind of means of voluntary enabling that y...
Mike Watson:
Lab
No, I am not—I covered that in my answer to Ian Jenkins. I do not believe that legislation will in itself achieve a step change, or that people are hanging b...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
You said that you expect the Gaelic board to produce a language plan for Gaelic. Would not legislative support assist the board in helping Gaelic to survive?...
Mike Watson:
Lab
It might be. I would expect the board to tell me such information when it gives me—or whoever is in my post—its language plan in about six months, or in the ...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
That would be quite similar to the Meek report recommendations.
Mike Watson:
Lab
The Meek report made two basic recommendations in May last year and, within a month, I announced that we had accepted one of them. The other recommendation w...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will follow up on the Meek report because it is important. The minister and I will disagree on virtually everything in his paper. Therefore, I am not going...
Mike Watson:
Lab
First, I reject the idea that objections to the bill are not principled—I would not have put them forward if they were not principled. "Working towards" secu...
Michael Russell:
SNP
The ministerial advisory group said that it is vital that we use the word "immediate". The Executive's submission to the committee talks about the establishm...
Mike Watson:
Lab
That is an over-dramatisation of the position.
Michael Russell:
SNP
It is not, according to the ministerial advisory group, an over-dramatisation.
Mike Watson:
Lab
The advisory group made two recommendations, one of which has been implemented. That is a 50 per cent success rate so far.The speed with which that recommend...
Michael Russell:
SNP
The Gaelic language is declining faster than it has declined in the past. In some way, we need to acknowledge both those things—
Mike Watson:
Lab
I am not sure that Gaelic is declining faster than in the past. Can Michael Russell justify that remark?
Michael Russell:
SNP
We will see in the census results.
Mike Watson:
Lab
Why would the language be declining faster when more children are in Gaelic-medium education? I do not think that people are dying quicker. People are living...