Committee
Justice Committee 08 March 2011
08 Mar 2011 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill
No. Clearly, we are never going to have a perfect system of criminal justice. I live in the real world and I understand that. The key point is that the model that I am suggesting has been proposed by the voluntary organisations themselves. It is not a competitor or a challenger; it is a body that will stand outwith the system to fill the gap between victims and victims organisations, and the Government, which is an important role. There has been a big debate about whether, in every policy area, we should be focusing on the service providers or the service consumers. However, that is a wider debate for another day.My view involves a consideration of the system as a whole. In some areas, there is system failure. It is important that we have someone who is not tied into the Government—which is why I have tended towards the parliamentary model rather than the ministerial model—and who has the independence of mind to say that, whatever Government we have in the United Kingdom or Scotland, things are not working right. I have often used an example that was given to me by Sara Payne, which is that the treatment of rape victims in the court system is appalling. I believe that a commissioner who saw the trauma and tragedy that women face in court, and the low conviction rate, would realise that that is an area into which they could conduct a massive investigation and point the Government in the direction of ways of ensuring better treatment of victims and witnesses, through legislation and other means. One of the key points is that we should not necessarily have a universal service for everyone against whom an offence has been committed, whether they have reported it or not. As Louise Casey said to me, we should not have the same service for someone whose lawnmower has been stolen as we have for someone whose son has been murdered, which is the case in England.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Item 2 is an evidence session on the Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill.The Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill was in...
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I thank you very much for your kind introduction, convener, and I thank members of the committee for inviting me to speak in this legacy hearing.As members w...
The Convener
Con
Thank you for that helpful opening statement. I commend you for your efforts in getting the bill as far as you have done.
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning, Mr Stewart. Thank you for coming to speak with us this morning. You have ably summarised for the committee some of the issues that led you to i...
David Stewart
Lab
I will deal with the last question first. If re-elected, I am committed to reintroducing the bill. I understand that, if the content does not change substant...
Bill Butler
Lab
Thank you—that is clear.
Dave Thompson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Mr Stewart, and congratulations on taking the bill as far as you have. It is unfortunate that we have run out of time and that we were not able...
David Stewart
Lab
Following my experience in dealing with Louise Casey and Sara Payne, I think that the key point is to have an independent champion, whose work does not dupli...
Dave Thompson
SNP
You mention the commissioner having a small staff. Do you have any views about how small or how large the staff complement would be in the commissioner’s off...
David Stewart
Lab
We carefully considered the financial resolution, under which we are required to identify staff and costings. It is a difficult matter. There is a market rat...
Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
When you were answering questions from Mr Thompson, you said that the commissioner would be a champion for victims and witnesses. That is laudable, and we wo...
David Stewart
Lab
You have probably identified six key functions, both from the bill and from my opening remarks, and I ensured that there was no real overlap or duplication b...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I certainly agree that the situation is not perfect. Yesterday, I had a meeting with Victim Support Scotland in Renfrewshire, so I understand some of the com...
David Stewart
Lab
I stress that the proposal is not something that I have just dreamed up. The key point is that the proposal came from Victim Support Scotland’s manifesto, an...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Lab
Various organisations already provide dedicated services and support for victims and witnesses in Scotland. Indeed, in your opening statement, you said that ...
David Stewart
Lab
No. Clearly, we are never going to have a perfect system of criminal justice. I live in the real world and I understand that. The key point is that the model...
Cathie Craigie
Lab
Some constituents of mine who have been victims of crime have expressed concern about the fact that someone who has been found guilty of the offence has serv...
David Stewart
Lab
Most definitely. That is a good example of the kind of thing that the commissioner would be involved in, and concerns the creation of best practice. Constitu...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
You mentioned the support that a victims commissioner could give to rape victims. Are there any other areas that are not currently being addressed by those w...
David Stewart
Lab
Most definitely. Members will have seen the Victim Support Scotland manifesto, which has a series of well-argued points. A couple of issues in particular mus...
James Kelly
Lab
You said that you had had discussions with Louise Casey, the commissioner in England and Wales, and one of the commissioners in Northern Ireland. What lesson...
David Stewart
Lab
The discussions have reinforced my impression that there is a need for Scotland to have a commissioner. Although devolution means that we can do things diffe...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I want to follow up on the issue of duplication that Cathie Craigie raised and which I touched on earlier.I have read Victim Support Scotland’s manifesto, an...
David Stewart
Lab
I stress that the commissioner is a policy idea of Victim Support Scotland, which believes that it is a good idea. No existing body has the exclusive or all-...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
Under your bill, would the commissioner have the power to investigate individual cases?
David Stewart
Lab
No. The reason for that is that I am keeping an eye on resources. If unlimited funds were available, that would be a good idea. Instead, the commissioner wou...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
There would be a general investigation if a system failure was identified or came to the fore.
David Stewart
Lab
Yes. Obviously, I expect the commissioner, which would be a high-powered post, to use their common sense and judgment. If they had a series of cases with a c...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
Apart from the power to require witnesses to appear and the reporting to Parliament, could a slightly beefed up Victim Support Scotland not conduct or commis...
David Stewart
Lab
To conclude on your question about investigation, which is where we started, the key power that no other body has would be the power to investigate complaint...