Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 09 March 2011
09 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Report on preventative spending”
As a non-member of the Finance Committee, I thank Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament, and the committee for its very useful report.
The committee’s strong support for preventative spending is welcome. As the report states, such spending
“has the potential to deliver great social and financial benefits to Scotland.”
The early years sphere is one in which the potential benefits of preventative spending are perhaps unrivalled. That is certainly reflected in the number of reports that have come out on the subject recently. The support from those who gave evidence to the committee for an emphasis on early years support was overwhelming.
We know that a child’s experience in the very early years has profound consequences for later life and that intervention and support measures can stop negative social outcomes. We know the groups of children who are most at risk; in fact, common sense tells us which groups often face the biggest challenges. They include children with parents who struggle with drug or alcohol addictions; children who are in care, or on the edge of being taken into care; children who grow up in poverty or in families with a history of violence, and so on.
The submission by Aberlour Child Care Trust highlighted the especially poor outcomes for Scottish children who have been in care during their childhood. More than a quarter of those in Scotland’s prisons have been in care; more than 20 per cent of our 20,000 16-to-19 year olds who are not in education or employment are recent care leavers; and only 3 per cent of care leavers go on to gain a higher education qualification. We know about the particularly poor chances that those youngsters face, so we must begin to use the resources at our disposal more wisely to give them the very best chance of a happy and successful future as early as possible.
We must also realise that this is not just a matter of the allocation of resources. Barnardo’s pointed out that the failure to eradicate Scotland’s social problems is much more complicated. It said:
“we have doubled the amount of money that we spend on welfare in the past 10 years—yet we still have the same reoffending rate among young people who come out of prison, little movement on child poverty, the same level of educational attainment for care leavers and increased problems with alcohol and substance misuse. We have doubled the amount of money that we spend, but we have barely put a dent in the problems.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 2 November 2010; c 2625.]
Johann Lamont is absolutely right to focus on the importance of evidence-based decisions that are based on outcomes, and also to flag up the possibility of the problems that are involved in shifts from reactive to preventative services.
Now more than ever we need to reconsider our approach to social problems and see that simply throwing money at problems does not always solve them. We need to get much better at evaluating what does and does not work, and we need to target resources in specific programmes and base those programmes on the needs of the users. That is crucial. Services work best when they are well received by those at whom they are aimed, so we need to listen carefully to the needs of those whom we know are most likely to face negative life outcomes and involve them in the process of service reform and future service provision.
We should not underestimate the challenges that local authorities and health boards face in service redesign. In one example in my constituency, the City of Edinburgh Council quite successfully introduced a re-enablement service that has made a big and positive difference to elderly people in Edinburgh, but the initial response from many people was negative—they were a little bit wary of what the service would actually mean. That is a big part of the problem, so I agree with Linda Fabiani about the importance of getting public service reform right and taking service users with us.
Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan of Strathclyde Police has been quoted many times today. I bet he wishes he was getting an amount of money every time his name was mentioned. He has been quoted as saying that investing in 1,000 more health visitors would be more effective in terms of violence reduction than tackling community safety in the longer term through 1,000 more police officers. However, it would be a brave politician who would pull the money out of the latter to pay for the former. That is why political consensus on the approach is so important if we are to tackle some of the things that I have mentioned.
The Joseph Rowntree Foundation argues that interventions that are based on family, parenting and parent-child interactions are the most effective forms of prevention and that they have the longest-lasting impacts. That is why the family-nurse partnership work that has been going on in Lothian and is now being rolled out to Tayside is fundamentally important. We will benefit from early intervention measures if we can build a consensus that introducing such measures is what we ought to be doing and if we take it from the rhetoric into action.
We have supported early intervention measures throughout the current parliamentary session because we recognise that they are often the most effective means of working and they often deliver the best results. We acknowledge the work that has been done in many fields by the current Government and, indeed, by ourselves in previous Administrations. I note the comment in the Finance Committee’s report that
“early intervention should not be viewed simply as a means of saving money. It should also be seen as an approach that will deliver wider benefits to children, their families and society as a whole.”
If I can make a more general point on the financial situation that we find ourselves in at present, the only positive thing that I can see in it from the many meetings and conversations that I have with people in schools, colleges, universities and across the education sector is that people are actually starting to look at the best use of the public pound and they are probably a little bit more focused in that work than they have ever been before. If we show that same focus in seeing that we need to shift from reactive to preventative spending, we will be doing ourselves a service in not only the short term, but the long term.
15:49
The committee’s strong support for preventative spending is welcome. As the report states, such spending
“has the potential to deliver great social and financial benefits to Scotland.”
The early years sphere is one in which the potential benefits of preventative spending are perhaps unrivalled. That is certainly reflected in the number of reports that have come out on the subject recently. The support from those who gave evidence to the committee for an emphasis on early years support was overwhelming.
We know that a child’s experience in the very early years has profound consequences for later life and that intervention and support measures can stop negative social outcomes. We know the groups of children who are most at risk; in fact, common sense tells us which groups often face the biggest challenges. They include children with parents who struggle with drug or alcohol addictions; children who are in care, or on the edge of being taken into care; children who grow up in poverty or in families with a history of violence, and so on.
The submission by Aberlour Child Care Trust highlighted the especially poor outcomes for Scottish children who have been in care during their childhood. More than a quarter of those in Scotland’s prisons have been in care; more than 20 per cent of our 20,000 16-to-19 year olds who are not in education or employment are recent care leavers; and only 3 per cent of care leavers go on to gain a higher education qualification. We know about the particularly poor chances that those youngsters face, so we must begin to use the resources at our disposal more wisely to give them the very best chance of a happy and successful future as early as possible.
We must also realise that this is not just a matter of the allocation of resources. Barnardo’s pointed out that the failure to eradicate Scotland’s social problems is much more complicated. It said:
“we have doubled the amount of money that we spend on welfare in the past 10 years—yet we still have the same reoffending rate among young people who come out of prison, little movement on child poverty, the same level of educational attainment for care leavers and increased problems with alcohol and substance misuse. We have doubled the amount of money that we spend, but we have barely put a dent in the problems.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 2 November 2010; c 2625.]
Johann Lamont is absolutely right to focus on the importance of evidence-based decisions that are based on outcomes, and also to flag up the possibility of the problems that are involved in shifts from reactive to preventative services.
Now more than ever we need to reconsider our approach to social problems and see that simply throwing money at problems does not always solve them. We need to get much better at evaluating what does and does not work, and we need to target resources in specific programmes and base those programmes on the needs of the users. That is crucial. Services work best when they are well received by those at whom they are aimed, so we need to listen carefully to the needs of those whom we know are most likely to face negative life outcomes and involve them in the process of service reform and future service provision.
We should not underestimate the challenges that local authorities and health boards face in service redesign. In one example in my constituency, the City of Edinburgh Council quite successfully introduced a re-enablement service that has made a big and positive difference to elderly people in Edinburgh, but the initial response from many people was negative—they were a little bit wary of what the service would actually mean. That is a big part of the problem, so I agree with Linda Fabiani about the importance of getting public service reform right and taking service users with us.
Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan of Strathclyde Police has been quoted many times today. I bet he wishes he was getting an amount of money every time his name was mentioned. He has been quoted as saying that investing in 1,000 more health visitors would be more effective in terms of violence reduction than tackling community safety in the longer term through 1,000 more police officers. However, it would be a brave politician who would pull the money out of the latter to pay for the former. That is why political consensus on the approach is so important if we are to tackle some of the things that I have mentioned.
The Joseph Rowntree Foundation argues that interventions that are based on family, parenting and parent-child interactions are the most effective forms of prevention and that they have the longest-lasting impacts. That is why the family-nurse partnership work that has been going on in Lothian and is now being rolled out to Tayside is fundamentally important. We will benefit from early intervention measures if we can build a consensus that introducing such measures is what we ought to be doing and if we take it from the rhetoric into action.
We have supported early intervention measures throughout the current parliamentary session because we recognise that they are often the most effective means of working and they often deliver the best results. We acknowledge the work that has been done in many fields by the current Government and, indeed, by ourselves in previous Administrations. I note the comment in the Finance Committee’s report that
“early intervention should not be viewed simply as a means of saving money. It should also be seen as an approach that will deliver wider benefits to children, their families and society as a whole.”
If I can make a more general point on the financial situation that we find ourselves in at present, the only positive thing that I can see in it from the many meetings and conversations that I have with people in schools, colleges, universities and across the education sector is that people are actually starting to look at the best use of the public pound and they are probably a little bit more focused in that work than they have ever been before. If we show that same focus in seeing that we need to shift from reactive to preventative spending, we will be doing ourselves a service in not only the short term, but the long term.
15:49
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-7994, in the name of Andrew Welsh, on the Finance Committee’s “Report on preventative spending”. I call A...
Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP)
SNP
This will be one of the last speeches that I will make as an MSP, and it is my final scheduled contribution as convener of the Parliament’s Finance Committee...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Lab
I know that the debate is supposed to be consensual, but will Andrew Welsh comment on the abolition of the health in pregnancy grant?
Andrew Welsh
SNP
Such questions are better posed elsewhere. I am relaying to Parliament a positive report, rather than the usual negativity that is produced in debates. I say...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
Mr Welsh said that this was his last scheduled appearance in a parliamentary debate as convener of the Finance Committee. As finance secretary, I am always a...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
I heartily endorse the cabinet secretary’s comments, but does he recognise that the committee found it difficult to establish what baseline information on ou...
John Swinney
SNP
Mr Purvis goes on to fascinating and complex ground in all of these areas. With Scotland performs, we have tried to identify a set of indicators that will pr...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to speak for Labour in support of the Finance Committee’s report. I associate myself with the remarks of the cabinet secretary on our convener, ...
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee clerks, and the witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry. I also thank Andrew Welsh for his time as convener of the Finance Committee...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
This is an important debate, which is why I am particularly sorry that I will have to leave before the end of it, as I have a meeting regarding my constituen...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Finance Committee, I, too, was very pleased to take evidence in the inquiry into preventative spend and to help to compile the report.Ther...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I start by paying tribute to Andrew Welsh for chairing the Finance Committee in a model, non-partisan way for the past four years, and for the contribution t...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP)
SNP
I associate myself with the words of tribute for our convener, Andrew Welsh. As Malcolm Chisholm said, Andrew has always convened the finance committee in an...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lab
I trust that I will not change the tone of the debate too much.I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. As the first person to spea...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)
LD
As a non-member of the Finance Committee, I thank Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament, and the committee for its very useful report.The commi...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I congratulate the committee on its work on this report. I am not on the committee and have not been intimately involved in the process, but even a rudimenta...
Linda Fabiani
SNP
Not that many.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
It seems plenty to me. I also gently point out that Mr Welsh had represented Angus for five years before I was born, although I am not sure whether he will t...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Lab
I do not often get excited by the work of the Finance Committee, important though it is. However, its report on preventative spending is excellent, and I com...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
The debate has been interesting and, by and large, consensual. Like several members who have spoken, but not the majority, I do not serve on the Finance Comm...
Derek Brownlee
Con
Ross Finnie raised an important point about the outcome basis. Although there has been a shift in rhetoric in Parliament about moving towards an outcome basi...
Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lab
I place on record my thanks to Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament and its workings. I also thank the Finance Committee for its report.Having...
John Swinney
SNP
It is not often that I can follow Mr Kerr in a debate and agree heartily with many of the sentiments that he has expressed. I particularly agree with his sta...
Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab)
Lab
As others have done, I acknowledge Andrew Welsh’s service. I will not repeat all the plaudits. I simply say to him that he should be proud of his public serv...