Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 09 March 2011
09 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Report on preventative spending”
I am pleased to speak for Labour in support of the Finance Committee’s report. I associate myself with the remarks of the cabinet secretary on our convener, Mr Welsh. I fear that I might have tested his patience somewhat on occasion, but he always dealt with it with good humour, for which I thank him. I also associate myself with Mr Welsh’s remarks, thanking our clerks for their hard work not just on the report that is before us, but during the two years for which I have been a member of the committee.
It is not just we on the Labour benches who believe that Scotland should be one of the best places in the world to bring up children. As Mr Welsh commented, the committee’s report was unanimous. Anything that puts me, Joe FitzPatrick and Derek Brownlee on the same page in agreement must be an achievement. Throughout the Finance Committee’s evidence sessions, that view was echoed by nearly every contributor to our discussions.
All parties believe that Scotland’s public services must focus more on preventing social problems from arising, rather than reacting to problems once they have occurred. I believe that the negative aspects of Scotland, including our higher rates of drinking and substance abuse compared with the rest of the UK and other countries, our relatively high prison population as a proportion of the total population, and our lower life expectancy compared with the rest of the UK, particularly in some parts of Glasgow, remain a major concern for us all.
The scale of the challenge that faces Scotland’s public sector in dealing with child wellbeing and social problems such as violence and ill health is huge, but it is not insurmountable. A lot of interesting and successful work is being done in that regard.
Is it not common sense to recognise that good habits that are picked up early in life can have an impact on reducing the future cost of ill health to the NHS; that they can help to boost economic output; that they will reduce the risks of vulnerable individuals getting involved in crime and potentially going to prison—with all the costs that are associated with that; and that they can impact on the quality of learning and the skills that are held by individuals, with productivity implications for society as a result? All our expert witnesses suggested that a preventative approach is one of the best means of tackling those problems, and that it can deliver significant financial savings in the process.
Mr Welsh has already quoted Detective Chief Superintendent Carnochan of the Strathclyde Police violence reduction unit, and I would like to do so, too. He said that
“the future of Scotland’s children”
was
“at a crossroads”.
He commented that, if he was offered the choice between 1,000 new police officers and 1,000 health visitors, he would be minded to opt for the health visitors.
Mr Carnochan said:
“We are presented with the opportunity to make Scotland the best place in the world to bring up our children and to change their destiny and improve their outcomes. That is within our grasp ... their future is our future. Our economy, our culture and our country depend on them.”
He went on to say:
“Plans and interventions that tinker around the edges and halfway measures are no longer acceptable ... Doing nothing is not an option ... we need to make investments in the early years so that our kids are not left behind before they even get to school.”
The committee’s report shows the consensus across the board that more focus must be placed on preventing social problems from arising, rather than on reacting to them once they have occurred. With common sense, we can see that there is no shortage of evidence and experience firmly pointing towards the placing of greater emphasis on prevention and early intervention, rather than on crisis intervention. The overwhelming consensus during the Finance Committee’s inquiry shows that greater recognition is required for that crucial early stage.
Children 1st put it in black and white in its submission: it wants less talk and more action. The charity is concerned that shifting the balance towards prevention should not remain merely theory and rhetoric but should become the reality on the ground.
For example, we spend more than £1 billion on funding higher education. That is more than three times more than we spend on pre-school education. One of our witnesses, Professor Edward Melhuish, of the University of London, suggested that the emphasis in investment should be the other way round.
Children 1st used the example of police funding. Police forces spent £320 million on community safety in 2009-10. Much of the money is spent on diversionary activities for young people to prevent offending, on antisocial behaviour teams and on closed-circuit television operations. There is no doubt that some community safety activity prevents problems from escalating, but it would be far better to prevent the problems from even beginning.
Some preventative work is going on. Dundee has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the UK and NHS Tayside is one of the pilot areas for the family-nurse partnership programme, which supports vulnerable pregnant teenagers. Another scheme is running in NHS Lothian. We heard it argued that such a service should be universal in Scotland, as is the case in the Netherlands. Many respondents argued for universal services for all families, on the grounds that such services are non-stigmatising, ensure that people who need intensive help can be more easily plugged into support and, most important, enable every family to put in place the parenting approaches, attitudes and supports that ensure parent-child attachment and a positive home environment.
As we found, and as Mr Welsh and the cabinet secretary said, in the short-term cycles in which political debates take place it can be difficult to shift spending priorities towards the longer term, given that the benefits of doing so might not appear until years or generations later. Let us try to move those concerns aside. Labour certainly does not think that the issue should be the subject of a political spat.
Much of the literature that I have read on prevention focuses on early years intervention, which can contribute to beneficial outcomes across a range of policy areas—from health to justice to economic development. One of the best examples of such an approach comes from the Netherlands. The most recent United Nations Children’s Fund study of child wellbeing in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries ranks the Netherlands as top, with the UK at the bottom of the table. How does the Netherlands do it? It has an overall national policy, which is pushed through by the minister for children.
James Heckman, the Nobel prize-winning economist, has argued that returns from investments in early years greatly outweigh the returns from investments in any stage of education—school or tertiary—and that an optimal investment strategy is to invest less in the old and more in the young. The committee’s report points in that direction and I commend it to the Parliament.
15:02
It is not just we on the Labour benches who believe that Scotland should be one of the best places in the world to bring up children. As Mr Welsh commented, the committee’s report was unanimous. Anything that puts me, Joe FitzPatrick and Derek Brownlee on the same page in agreement must be an achievement. Throughout the Finance Committee’s evidence sessions, that view was echoed by nearly every contributor to our discussions.
All parties believe that Scotland’s public services must focus more on preventing social problems from arising, rather than reacting to problems once they have occurred. I believe that the negative aspects of Scotland, including our higher rates of drinking and substance abuse compared with the rest of the UK and other countries, our relatively high prison population as a proportion of the total population, and our lower life expectancy compared with the rest of the UK, particularly in some parts of Glasgow, remain a major concern for us all.
The scale of the challenge that faces Scotland’s public sector in dealing with child wellbeing and social problems such as violence and ill health is huge, but it is not insurmountable. A lot of interesting and successful work is being done in that regard.
Is it not common sense to recognise that good habits that are picked up early in life can have an impact on reducing the future cost of ill health to the NHS; that they can help to boost economic output; that they will reduce the risks of vulnerable individuals getting involved in crime and potentially going to prison—with all the costs that are associated with that; and that they can impact on the quality of learning and the skills that are held by individuals, with productivity implications for society as a result? All our expert witnesses suggested that a preventative approach is one of the best means of tackling those problems, and that it can deliver significant financial savings in the process.
Mr Welsh has already quoted Detective Chief Superintendent Carnochan of the Strathclyde Police violence reduction unit, and I would like to do so, too. He said that
“the future of Scotland’s children”
was
“at a crossroads”.
He commented that, if he was offered the choice between 1,000 new police officers and 1,000 health visitors, he would be minded to opt for the health visitors.
Mr Carnochan said:
“We are presented with the opportunity to make Scotland the best place in the world to bring up our children and to change their destiny and improve their outcomes. That is within our grasp ... their future is our future. Our economy, our culture and our country depend on them.”
He went on to say:
“Plans and interventions that tinker around the edges and halfway measures are no longer acceptable ... Doing nothing is not an option ... we need to make investments in the early years so that our kids are not left behind before they even get to school.”
The committee’s report shows the consensus across the board that more focus must be placed on preventing social problems from arising, rather than on reacting to them once they have occurred. With common sense, we can see that there is no shortage of evidence and experience firmly pointing towards the placing of greater emphasis on prevention and early intervention, rather than on crisis intervention. The overwhelming consensus during the Finance Committee’s inquiry shows that greater recognition is required for that crucial early stage.
Children 1st put it in black and white in its submission: it wants less talk and more action. The charity is concerned that shifting the balance towards prevention should not remain merely theory and rhetoric but should become the reality on the ground.
For example, we spend more than £1 billion on funding higher education. That is more than three times more than we spend on pre-school education. One of our witnesses, Professor Edward Melhuish, of the University of London, suggested that the emphasis in investment should be the other way round.
Children 1st used the example of police funding. Police forces spent £320 million on community safety in 2009-10. Much of the money is spent on diversionary activities for young people to prevent offending, on antisocial behaviour teams and on closed-circuit television operations. There is no doubt that some community safety activity prevents problems from escalating, but it would be far better to prevent the problems from even beginning.
Some preventative work is going on. Dundee has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in the UK and NHS Tayside is one of the pilot areas for the family-nurse partnership programme, which supports vulnerable pregnant teenagers. Another scheme is running in NHS Lothian. We heard it argued that such a service should be universal in Scotland, as is the case in the Netherlands. Many respondents argued for universal services for all families, on the grounds that such services are non-stigmatising, ensure that people who need intensive help can be more easily plugged into support and, most important, enable every family to put in place the parenting approaches, attitudes and supports that ensure parent-child attachment and a positive home environment.
As we found, and as Mr Welsh and the cabinet secretary said, in the short-term cycles in which political debates take place it can be difficult to shift spending priorities towards the longer term, given that the benefits of doing so might not appear until years or generations later. Let us try to move those concerns aside. Labour certainly does not think that the issue should be the subject of a political spat.
Much of the literature that I have read on prevention focuses on early years intervention, which can contribute to beneficial outcomes across a range of policy areas—from health to justice to economic development. One of the best examples of such an approach comes from the Netherlands. The most recent United Nations Children’s Fund study of child wellbeing in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries ranks the Netherlands as top, with the UK at the bottom of the table. How does the Netherlands do it? It has an overall national policy, which is pushed through by the minister for children.
James Heckman, the Nobel prize-winning economist, has argued that returns from investments in early years greatly outweigh the returns from investments in any stage of education—school or tertiary—and that an optimal investment strategy is to invest less in the old and more in the young. The committee’s report points in that direction and I commend it to the Parliament.
15:02
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-7994, in the name of Andrew Welsh, on the Finance Committee’s “Report on preventative spending”. I call A...
Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP)
SNP
This will be one of the last speeches that I will make as an MSP, and it is my final scheduled contribution as convener of the Parliament’s Finance Committee...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Lab
I know that the debate is supposed to be consensual, but will Andrew Welsh comment on the abolition of the health in pregnancy grant?
Andrew Welsh
SNP
Such questions are better posed elsewhere. I am relaying to Parliament a positive report, rather than the usual negativity that is produced in debates. I say...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
Mr Welsh said that this was his last scheduled appearance in a parliamentary debate as convener of the Finance Committee. As finance secretary, I am always a...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
I heartily endorse the cabinet secretary’s comments, but does he recognise that the committee found it difficult to establish what baseline information on ou...
John Swinney
SNP
Mr Purvis goes on to fascinating and complex ground in all of these areas. With Scotland performs, we have tried to identify a set of indicators that will pr...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to speak for Labour in support of the Finance Committee’s report. I associate myself with the remarks of the cabinet secretary on our convener, ...
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee clerks, and the witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry. I also thank Andrew Welsh for his time as convener of the Finance Committee...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
This is an important debate, which is why I am particularly sorry that I will have to leave before the end of it, as I have a meeting regarding my constituen...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As a member of the Finance Committee, I, too, was very pleased to take evidence in the inquiry into preventative spend and to help to compile the report.Ther...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I start by paying tribute to Andrew Welsh for chairing the Finance Committee in a model, non-partisan way for the past four years, and for the contribution t...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP)
SNP
I associate myself with the words of tribute for our convener, Andrew Welsh. As Malcolm Chisholm said, Andrew has always convened the finance committee in an...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lab
I trust that I will not change the tone of the debate too much.I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. As the first person to spea...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)
LD
As a non-member of the Finance Committee, I thank Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament, and the committee for its very useful report.The commi...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I congratulate the committee on its work on this report. I am not on the committee and have not been intimately involved in the process, but even a rudimenta...
Linda Fabiani
SNP
Not that many.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
It seems plenty to me. I also gently point out that Mr Welsh had represented Angus for five years before I was born, although I am not sure whether he will t...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Lab
I do not often get excited by the work of the Finance Committee, important though it is. However, its report on preventative spending is excellent, and I com...
Ross Finnie (West of Scotland) (LD)
LD
The debate has been interesting and, by and large, consensual. Like several members who have spoken, but not the majority, I do not serve on the Finance Comm...
Derek Brownlee
Con
Ross Finnie raised an important point about the outcome basis. Although there has been a shift in rhetoric in Parliament about moving towards an outcome basi...
Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lab
I place on record my thanks to Andrew Welsh for his contribution to the Parliament and its workings. I also thank the Finance Committee for its report.Having...
John Swinney
SNP
It is not often that I can follow Mr Kerr in a debate and agree heartily with many of the sentiments that he has expressed. I particularly agree with his sta...
Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab)
Lab
As others have done, I acknowledge Andrew Welsh’s service. I will not repeat all the plaudits. I simply say to him that he should be proud of his public serv...