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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 March 2011

03 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”
Coffey, Willie SNP Kilmarnock and Loudoun Watch on SPTV
I will be staying for the entire debate.

It has been an enormous pleasure to serve on the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee for the entire parliamentary session. Contrary to popular belief, the committee is one of the most interesting and challenging committees in the Parliament. It covers every area of the public sector in Scotland and offers members a real opportunity to learn how Scotland works. One minute we might be looking at the cost of hip replacements in the NHS; the next we might be skiing down the slopes of the Cairngorms, clutching the audited accounts as we go. The diversity of the committee’s agenda was as fascinating as it was challenging. I recall spending many a late night poring over some new aspect of the public services and trying to give of my best to hold it to account.

A mention of audit is usually the signal for our colleagues to announce that they have something else to attend to and scurry off to the garden lobby. Little do they know that they are missing a great opportunity to get their teeth into just about every corner of the public sector. Our members know the value of the experience and jealously guard the committee’s reputation.

Audit, of course, is about looking at systems and processes, taking a snapshot in time, reporting what is observed and recommending actions for improvement. It is not about blaming and finger pointing—although the temptation to do that when politicians are in the frame is sometimes overwhelming. In the main, Audit Scotland’s reports have painted a picture of excellent service delivery in Scotland, which we should recognise.

Guiding the committee on its merry way are, of course, Audit Scotland, led by Robert Black, the Auditor General for Scotland, who is in the public gallery, and our hard-working team of clerks. Audit Scotland’s reports are superb. They provide us with a framework that allows us to examine various services in minute detail. The quality of reporting and the advice that is given are of great benefit to the committee and ultimately to the Government in planning future services—the advice must surely be the best that any Government could wish for. Our wonderful clerks hang it all together. Their diligence and skill in interpreting members’ views have been a great help to everyone who has served on the committee.

During the past four years we have been on quite a journey together. We have looked at a wide variety of areas in Scottish public life: police call management; local authority audits; numerous NHS services—one or two members mentioned our visit to the Western Isles; major capital projects; prisons; the Commonwealth games; public finances; the Cairngorm funicular; civil contingency planning; the national fraud initiative; VisitScotland; the gathering; and the ScotRail franchise.

I am sure that members recall the visit to our committee in December 2009 by members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, including members from Sinn Féin, the Social Democratic and Labour Party, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Ulster Unionist Party and the Progressive Unionist Party, who all worked together with us, here in Scotland. That was a wonderful day.

For me, one of the most important messages to come out of Audit Scotland’s reports is the clear need for our public service providers to adopt recognised management systems, to invest time and energy in the planning and cost estimation phases for capital works in particular, and to learn lessons by doing thorough post-project evaluations to assist them with future service design. That was a recurring message throughout the past four years, and I am hopeful that our public service providers will fully embrace that wise advice from Audit Scotland and our committee.

Our meetings were not without their lighter moments. I recall that the committee flew into Stornoway one day in an aeroplane that sounded and looked more like an oven on wings. We had great hospitality, and I recall one of our members, Stuart McMillan, rushing off after the meeting to get his order of Stornoway black pudding before he left. We heard the business plan for the Cairngorms ski facility that might have ended up not involving any skiing at all. That was a bit concerning. We also heard some classic “Yes, Minister”-type responses from some of our civil servants, who are occasionally masters of the evasive, but in a very polite way. We were told about some unfortunate people in hospital who were forced to remain there for weeks on end because there were no buses to get them home. We eventually ran out of adjectives and were right sair astonished on many occasions. We have been astonished this morning as well.

My personal favourite must surely be the much-loved Queen’s and Lord Treasurer’s Remembrancer, which I am sure I do not have to remind members had no accountable officer for months on end and did not produce any accounts for two years. However, nobody noticed until Audit Scotland came along. I recall fondly the comments of Mr Phil Grigor of Audit Scotland, who announced to a stunned committee that it was

“A treasure trove”

worth £5 million and that

“anything that comes out of the ground that is of value ... is passed to the state ... Anything that belongs to no one becomes the King’s—or the Queen’s, in this state—is the remembrancer’s mantra.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 17 June 2009; c 1175.]

It was the only time that I saw the convener stumped for words. It was a classic moment in the life of the Public Audit Committee. Who said that audit cannot be fun?

The Scottish Parliament’s Public Audit Committee, aided and abetted by Audit Scotland, delivers a hugely important service to the people of Scotland. The system that we have is respected throughout Europe and should be cherished.

In line with its own preaching, the system should also look at ways of improving. A thought from me is that the committee, Audit Scotland or some other body could take on the role of checking up on whether Scotland’s public services have paid heed to the recommendations that we have made over the course of our work.

I commend the committee’s report to the Parliament.

10:58

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8005, in the name of Hugh Henry, on “Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”.09:36
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab) Lab
I am delighted to open the first ever debate sponsored by the Public Audit Committee of the Scottish Parliament. Since 1999, and particularly over the past f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Public Audit Committee’s first report of 2011, on the third parliamentary session. I have listened carefully to Hugh ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the chance to be involved in the debate. The Public Audit Committee is one of the most important committees in the Parliament and its work under th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman) Lab
I call Jackson Carlaw. Mr Carlaw, you have a tight six minutes.10:03
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con) Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this will be a relatively brief contribution in any event.Like others, I begin by acknowledging the role of the Pub...
John Swinney SNP
I sympathise entirely with the member’s point but I wonder whether, in the interests of completeness, he will also reflect on the fact that Audit Scotland wa...
Jackson Carlaw Con
I was just about to mention the cabinet secretary’s reassurance to the chamber that the accuracy of cost estimating has improved. I am happy to hope and beli...
Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD) LD
The Public Audit Committee is a vital committee of our Parliament. Democracy is about more than simply the right to vote. The ability to scrutinise and chall...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
As I was appointed to the Public Audit Committee only in November of last year, I was not part of many of the discussions that shaped the reports that the co...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab) Lab
First, I tender my apologies. A prior commitment means that, after making this speech, I have to go and meet representatives of a significant organisation in...
John Swinney SNP
In the interests of maintaining recollections, I point out that the Government’s response to the committee comes from the permanent secretary, not from minis...
Mr McAveety Lab
That exemplifies the difficult nuances with which we are dealing. When we have, with that understanding, probed some of those folk who have appeared at commi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
You should finish now, Mr McAveety.
Mr McAveety Lab
I hope that the minister will reflect on those things in his response at the end of the debate.10:28
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate. As Jackson Carlaw has indicated, the Scottish Conservatives value very highly the work of the Publi...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Jamie McGrigor talked about good faith. Does he accept that the Government acted with good faith to try to save the event because it already had creditors? I...
Jamie McGrigor Con
I hardly think that the Government acted in good faith when what was going on was not transparent.The committee plays a vital role in the Parliament’s workin...
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
Debates such as this are significant and have the potential to be very beneficial. The process of producing a report to highlight key themes that have reappe...
Jamie McGrigor Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Anne McLaughlin SNP
No.That said, I believe that the Public Audit Committee fulfils a vital function. I agree with Hugh Henry that the committee’s remit ought to be broadened so...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and tender my apologies, because I will have to leave before the end to attend an urgent meeting on a co...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I apologise to those who will speak in the closing part of the debate because I, too, have a prior engagement and will not be here. School pupils from my con...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Iain Smith LD
I will just finish this point, then I will let the member in.I was particularly concerned that in the report on the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise t...
Willie Coffey SNP
The member said that the recognition afforded to the committee was an indication of failures in the system, but it is not, because that is not what audit is ...
Iain Smith LD
I think that the member misses my point, which is that the awards have come to the committee because attention was drawn to it through its persistence in pri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan) SNP
You must finish now.
Iain Smith LD
Let me finish my sentence, Presiding Officer. It is usually years before such debts are written off by a public body; that does not happen immediately. The G...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP) SNP
I will be staying for the entire debate.It has been an enormous pleasure to serve on the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee for the entire parliamentary ses...