Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 03 March 2011
03 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”
Debates such as this are significant and have the potential to be very beneficial. The process of producing a report to highlight key themes that have reappeared before the committee and which have been of particular concern has been a worthwhile exercise. That said, the committee is soon to be dissolved, so the exercise will be truly worth while only if the Parliament in the next session, the next committee and the next Government take heed of the concerns. I urge them to do so, because we have the opportunity to bring about improvements.
Initially, I will focus on one of the report’s three themes—data collection and measuring quality. As a new member of the Parliament—never mind the committee—early in 2009, I had much to take in, and nowhere more so than on the committee. The first time that I became aware of a data collection issue was during our deliberations on the Auditor General’s report “Drug and alcohol services in Scotland” in spring 2009.
In a previous role, I worked hard to fight the closure of a residential alcohol rehabilitation centre. I joined campaigners in arguing that the move towards home-based treatment was not sufficiently tested to argue that it would achieve better outcomes. Naively, I asked the campaigners for their killer statistics that would prove that their way was tried and tested, but they had none. All that they had was anecdotal evidence and short-term data. I was again naive in thinking that that was a one-off, and that it was an issue just with that project or that area, because when I found myself studying the Auditor General’s report I discovered that in that case—and, as I later found out, in many others—there was a real dearth of data and data sharing. On something as important to our communities as drug and alcohol services, that was extremely worrying.
One shining example of good practice was highlighted in the Auditor General’s report. In the West Lothian Council area, at least, there was appropriate and detailed outcome measurement, and an outcome-based system was used for commissioning services, which made sense. That was great for looking at what was effective in West Lothian, but what of the wider Scottish context? Did we have the detailed information to advise practitioners in drug and alcohol work about what worked best for particular types of people? Did we study practices in European countries where deaths from alcohol and drug abuse were dropping, while deaths in this country were rising? Did we have the comparisons to allow us, as the Public Audit Committee, to say that public money was being spent appropriately? The evidence told us that in all three cases we did not. Coming at the issue so soon after my election, when I was still able to see things as a non-politician, I was shocked.
The present Government has made remarkable progress in having a drugs strategy that operates on a national basis, although I find it breathtaking that it was the first such strategy to operate in Scotland.
I have to say—and I will do so gently—that there have been times when, as a member of the Public Audit Committee, I have felt frustrated by the party-political basis on which the committee’s discussions have seemed to take place. To me, that is not what the committee should be about. For example, the fact that a disproportionate amount of our time was spent on a relatively small amount of expenditure was due, I firmly believe, to the political capital that was seen to be there for the taking. Eleven sessions were held on the gathering. I accept what Jamie McGrigor says, but we must remember that that event generated £8 million for the economy of Edinburgh alone. In contrast, only three sessions were squeezed in on the Edinburgh trams project, which is costing us dear on a daily basis—although we all hope that the mediation that starts next week will work. My point should be self-evident.
It often felt that the committee’s remit extended only to scrutinising the expenditure of the current Government and not to scrutinising that of the previous Executive. It was as if problems with data collection, transparency and governance were the result of SNP decisions rather than long-term issues that had been overseen by the previous Executive. It was interesting that members were astonished or outraged at a compromise clause in a senior civil servant’s contract—we have heard that again today—which led to suggestions of secrecy within the SNP Government, yet the very members who were so astonished were in government when the procedures for those compromise clauses in contracts were drawn up. I often found myself resisting the temptation to say, “If you feel that strongly about it, why didn’t you do something during the eight years you were in power?”
Initially, I will focus on one of the report’s three themes—data collection and measuring quality. As a new member of the Parliament—never mind the committee—early in 2009, I had much to take in, and nowhere more so than on the committee. The first time that I became aware of a data collection issue was during our deliberations on the Auditor General’s report “Drug and alcohol services in Scotland” in spring 2009.
In a previous role, I worked hard to fight the closure of a residential alcohol rehabilitation centre. I joined campaigners in arguing that the move towards home-based treatment was not sufficiently tested to argue that it would achieve better outcomes. Naively, I asked the campaigners for their killer statistics that would prove that their way was tried and tested, but they had none. All that they had was anecdotal evidence and short-term data. I was again naive in thinking that that was a one-off, and that it was an issue just with that project or that area, because when I found myself studying the Auditor General’s report I discovered that in that case—and, as I later found out, in many others—there was a real dearth of data and data sharing. On something as important to our communities as drug and alcohol services, that was extremely worrying.
One shining example of good practice was highlighted in the Auditor General’s report. In the West Lothian Council area, at least, there was appropriate and detailed outcome measurement, and an outcome-based system was used for commissioning services, which made sense. That was great for looking at what was effective in West Lothian, but what of the wider Scottish context? Did we have the detailed information to advise practitioners in drug and alcohol work about what worked best for particular types of people? Did we study practices in European countries where deaths from alcohol and drug abuse were dropping, while deaths in this country were rising? Did we have the comparisons to allow us, as the Public Audit Committee, to say that public money was being spent appropriately? The evidence told us that in all three cases we did not. Coming at the issue so soon after my election, when I was still able to see things as a non-politician, I was shocked.
The present Government has made remarkable progress in having a drugs strategy that operates on a national basis, although I find it breathtaking that it was the first such strategy to operate in Scotland.
I have to say—and I will do so gently—that there have been times when, as a member of the Public Audit Committee, I have felt frustrated by the party-political basis on which the committee’s discussions have seemed to take place. To me, that is not what the committee should be about. For example, the fact that a disproportionate amount of our time was spent on a relatively small amount of expenditure was due, I firmly believe, to the political capital that was seen to be there for the taking. Eleven sessions were held on the gathering. I accept what Jamie McGrigor says, but we must remember that that event generated £8 million for the economy of Edinburgh alone. In contrast, only three sessions were squeezed in on the Edinburgh trams project, which is costing us dear on a daily basis—although we all hope that the mediation that starts next week will work. My point should be self-evident.
It often felt that the committee’s remit extended only to scrutinising the expenditure of the current Government and not to scrutinising that of the previous Executive. It was as if problems with data collection, transparency and governance were the result of SNP decisions rather than long-term issues that had been overseen by the previous Executive. It was interesting that members were astonished or outraged at a compromise clause in a senior civil servant’s contract—we have heard that again today—which led to suggestions of secrecy within the SNP Government, yet the very members who were so astonished were in government when the procedures for those compromise clauses in contracts were drawn up. I often found myself resisting the temptation to say, “If you feel that strongly about it, why didn’t you do something during the eight years you were in power?”
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8005, in the name of Hugh Henry, on “Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”.09:36
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)
Lab
I am delighted to open the first ever debate sponsored by the Public Audit Committee of the Scottish Parliament. Since 1999, and particularly over the past f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Public Audit Committee’s first report of 2011, on the third parliamentary session. I have listened carefully to Hugh ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the chance to be involved in the debate. The Public Audit Committee is one of the most important committees in the Parliament and its work under th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman)
Lab
I call Jackson Carlaw. Mr Carlaw, you have a tight six minutes.10:03
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con)
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this will be a relatively brief contribution in any event.Like others, I begin by acknowledging the role of the Pub...
John Swinney
SNP
I sympathise entirely with the member’s point but I wonder whether, in the interests of completeness, he will also reflect on the fact that Audit Scotland wa...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
I was just about to mention the cabinet secretary’s reassurance to the chamber that the accuracy of cost estimating has improved. I am happy to hope and beli...
Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD)
LD
The Public Audit Committee is a vital committee of our Parliament. Democracy is about more than simply the right to vote. The ability to scrutinise and chall...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As I was appointed to the Public Audit Committee only in November of last year, I was not part of many of the discussions that shaped the reports that the co...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Lab
First, I tender my apologies. A prior commitment means that, after making this speech, I have to go and meet representatives of a significant organisation in...
John Swinney
SNP
In the interests of maintaining recollections, I point out that the Government’s response to the committee comes from the permanent secretary, not from minis...
Mr McAveety
Lab
That exemplifies the difficult nuances with which we are dealing. When we have, with that understanding, probed some of those folk who have appeared at commi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You should finish now, Mr McAveety.
Mr McAveety
Lab
I hope that the minister will reflect on those things in his response at the end of the debate.10:28
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate. As Jackson Carlaw has indicated, the Scottish Conservatives value very highly the work of the Publi...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Jamie McGrigor talked about good faith. Does he accept that the Government acted with good faith to try to save the event because it already had creditors? I...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
I hardly think that the Government acted in good faith when what was going on was not transparent.The committee plays a vital role in the Parliament’s workin...
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
Debates such as this are significant and have the potential to be very beneficial. The process of producing a report to highlight key themes that have reappe...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Anne McLaughlin
SNP
No.That said, I believe that the Public Audit Committee fulfils a vital function. I agree with Hugh Henry that the committee’s remit ought to be broadened so...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and tender my apologies, because I will have to leave before the end to attend an urgent meeting on a co...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
I apologise to those who will speak in the closing part of the debate because I, too, have a prior engagement and will not be here. School pupils from my con...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Iain Smith
LD
I will just finish this point, then I will let the member in.I was particularly concerned that in the report on the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise t...
Willie Coffey
SNP
The member said that the recognition afforded to the committee was an indication of failures in the system, but it is not, because that is not what audit is ...
Iain Smith
LD
I think that the member misses my point, which is that the awards have come to the committee because attention was drawn to it through its persistence in pri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
You must finish now.
Iain Smith
LD
Let me finish my sentence, Presiding Officer. It is usually years before such debts are written off by a public body; that does not happen immediately. The G...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
I will be staying for the entire debate.It has been an enormous pleasure to serve on the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee for the entire parliamentary ses...