Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 03 March 2011
03 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”
As I was appointed to the Public Audit Committee only in November of last year, I was not part of many of the discussions that shaped the reports that the committee has produced in this session and which in turn we consider today. However, some weeks after I joined the committee, it was given the committee of the year award, which might or might not have been a coincidence.
The committee has established a reputation for robust and rigorous scrutiny of the work of the Scottish Government and other public bodies in Scotland. As Nicol Stephen said, it is a vital committee and I have enjoyed participating in its proceedings during the final months of this Scottish parliamentary session. I echo the comments of Hugh Henry and Nicol Stephen in thanking committee colleagues and the clerks for their help and support. I also thank the Auditor General for Scotland, who is in the public gallery, and Audit Scotland for the quality of their reports.
That such scrutiny can take place at all is a tribute to the first phase of devolution since 1999. Before that date, decisions that affected Scotland were generally taken by a small cabal of Scottish Office ministers, often with little electoral mandate. Scrutiny, when it came, was dependent on time being available in the cumbersome structures of the Westminster system and on the willingness of back-bench members of Parliament from Scotland to make those structures work. In short, the Westminster system traditionally did not lend itself to the highest standards of transparency. We should therefore be encouraged that devolution has improved the transparency and accountability of decision making in Scotland. That is true in relation to the legislative scrutiny and investigations that subject committees carry out and particularly in relation to the Public Audit Committee’s role in casting its eye over the wider public sector, following on from the reports of the Auditor General.
The report that is before us is a useful summary of the main themes that can be drawn from the various investigations that the committee has carried out and the reports that it has issued since 2007. The themes of improving transparency, data collection and governance throughout Scotland’s public sector provide a useful basis for understanding how we can ensure that decisions are made as effectively as possible, especially given the constrained economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. The late makar, Edwin Morgan, in his poem to mark the opening of the Scottish Parliament building, said:
“Light of the day, shine in; light of the mind, shine out!”
Transparent decision making in the clear light of day is the first step in a robust scrutiny process.
The committee has pushed hard for disclosure of information on the use of public funds, especially as regards salaries in the civil service and non-departmental public bodies. As the cabinet secretary said, matters concerning the senior civil service are reserved to Westminster, but I welcome the Scottish Government’s confirmation that it seeks to comply with Cabinet Office regulations on the publication of information about senior salary levels.
The Scottish Government has taken steps to answer issues that the committee raised about the handling of commercial confidentialities during the awarding of public procurement contracts. The Government actively discourages the use of confidentiality agreements in such contracts and procedures are in place to ensure that as much information is available as possible under the terms of freedom of information legislation. That is important in further enhancing the principles of transparency.
Measuring the effect of policy decisions, and especially spending decisions, is important for informing future decision making and for evaluating the on-going impact of those policies. The provision of accurate and timely statistical information and qualitative data, where appropriate, allows effective monitoring and evaluation of policy impacts.
The committee has considered the provision of information on a range of topics and policy areas, and the report considers in particular the availability of statistics on free personal and nursing care, health care quality, anti-depressant drugs, and the broader sweep of data on national outcomes. A proper balance has to be struck for all those things, and nobody would wish to imagine that the Public Audit Committee was asking for excessive additional resources to be spent on monitoring outcomes at this time of a squeeze on public sector finances. Although additional information is useful for casting light on the utilisation of public resources, the cost of gathering such data must be proportionate to the expenditure that is being analysed generally.
The Scottish Government has taken steps since 2007 to make reports on its policy successes and national indicators available to anyone who is interested. The Scotland performs website, to which the cabinet secretary referred, provides an at-a-glance snapshot of how Scotland and its Government are doing. It represents a new standard in governmental accountability, which enhances the already wide range of statistics and data that are available from a number of different official sources.
The final major theme to emerge from the work of the Public Audit Committee this session was the need for good governance in the public sector. In particular, effective management, monitoring and decision-making procedures in health boards and in the development of major capital projects are cited as examples of where getting it right is important. Guidance exists to ensure that those structures operate effectively, and I understand that all health boards have now completed a self-assessment process using the Scottish Government’s health board development diagnostic tool, which has led to an improved process of induction for new members of health boards.
The Public Audit Committee has played an important role during this session of the Scottish Parliament. Its work is vital for the role of the legislature as it holds the Executive to account. In that regard, the Scottish Government has responded positively to the committee, as was reflected in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks today, and in the Government’s written response to the report, which the committee considered yesterday.
I welcome this opportunity to raise the various themes that have been discussed by the Public Audit Committee over the past four years. As I said, the committee has an important role to play, working with the Scottish Government to ensure transparency in public expenditure and in the outcomes from that expenditure. I wish whoever forms the Public Audit Committee in the next session well with the task.
10:22
The committee has established a reputation for robust and rigorous scrutiny of the work of the Scottish Government and other public bodies in Scotland. As Nicol Stephen said, it is a vital committee and I have enjoyed participating in its proceedings during the final months of this Scottish parliamentary session. I echo the comments of Hugh Henry and Nicol Stephen in thanking committee colleagues and the clerks for their help and support. I also thank the Auditor General for Scotland, who is in the public gallery, and Audit Scotland for the quality of their reports.
That such scrutiny can take place at all is a tribute to the first phase of devolution since 1999. Before that date, decisions that affected Scotland were generally taken by a small cabal of Scottish Office ministers, often with little electoral mandate. Scrutiny, when it came, was dependent on time being available in the cumbersome structures of the Westminster system and on the willingness of back-bench members of Parliament from Scotland to make those structures work. In short, the Westminster system traditionally did not lend itself to the highest standards of transparency. We should therefore be encouraged that devolution has improved the transparency and accountability of decision making in Scotland. That is true in relation to the legislative scrutiny and investigations that subject committees carry out and particularly in relation to the Public Audit Committee’s role in casting its eye over the wider public sector, following on from the reports of the Auditor General.
The report that is before us is a useful summary of the main themes that can be drawn from the various investigations that the committee has carried out and the reports that it has issued since 2007. The themes of improving transparency, data collection and governance throughout Scotland’s public sector provide a useful basis for understanding how we can ensure that decisions are made as effectively as possible, especially given the constrained economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. The late makar, Edwin Morgan, in his poem to mark the opening of the Scottish Parliament building, said:
“Light of the day, shine in; light of the mind, shine out!”
Transparent decision making in the clear light of day is the first step in a robust scrutiny process.
The committee has pushed hard for disclosure of information on the use of public funds, especially as regards salaries in the civil service and non-departmental public bodies. As the cabinet secretary said, matters concerning the senior civil service are reserved to Westminster, but I welcome the Scottish Government’s confirmation that it seeks to comply with Cabinet Office regulations on the publication of information about senior salary levels.
The Scottish Government has taken steps to answer issues that the committee raised about the handling of commercial confidentialities during the awarding of public procurement contracts. The Government actively discourages the use of confidentiality agreements in such contracts and procedures are in place to ensure that as much information is available as possible under the terms of freedom of information legislation. That is important in further enhancing the principles of transparency.
Measuring the effect of policy decisions, and especially spending decisions, is important for informing future decision making and for evaluating the on-going impact of those policies. The provision of accurate and timely statistical information and qualitative data, where appropriate, allows effective monitoring and evaluation of policy impacts.
The committee has considered the provision of information on a range of topics and policy areas, and the report considers in particular the availability of statistics on free personal and nursing care, health care quality, anti-depressant drugs, and the broader sweep of data on national outcomes. A proper balance has to be struck for all those things, and nobody would wish to imagine that the Public Audit Committee was asking for excessive additional resources to be spent on monitoring outcomes at this time of a squeeze on public sector finances. Although additional information is useful for casting light on the utilisation of public resources, the cost of gathering such data must be proportionate to the expenditure that is being analysed generally.
The Scottish Government has taken steps since 2007 to make reports on its policy successes and national indicators available to anyone who is interested. The Scotland performs website, to which the cabinet secretary referred, provides an at-a-glance snapshot of how Scotland and its Government are doing. It represents a new standard in governmental accountability, which enhances the already wide range of statistics and data that are available from a number of different official sources.
The final major theme to emerge from the work of the Public Audit Committee this session was the need for good governance in the public sector. In particular, effective management, monitoring and decision-making procedures in health boards and in the development of major capital projects are cited as examples of where getting it right is important. Guidance exists to ensure that those structures operate effectively, and I understand that all health boards have now completed a self-assessment process using the Scottish Government’s health board development diagnostic tool, which has led to an improved process of induction for new members of health boards.
The Public Audit Committee has played an important role during this session of the Scottish Parliament. Its work is vital for the role of the legislature as it holds the Executive to account. In that regard, the Scottish Government has responded positively to the committee, as was reflected in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks today, and in the Government’s written response to the report, which the committee considered yesterday.
I welcome this opportunity to raise the various themes that have been discussed by the Public Audit Committee over the past four years. As I said, the committee has an important role to play, working with the Scottish Government to ensure transparency in public expenditure and in the outcomes from that expenditure. I wish whoever forms the Public Audit Committee in the next session well with the task.
10:22
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8005, in the name of Hugh Henry, on “Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”.09:36
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)
Lab
I am delighted to open the first ever debate sponsored by the Public Audit Committee of the Scottish Parliament. Since 1999, and particularly over the past f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Public Audit Committee’s first report of 2011, on the third parliamentary session. I have listened carefully to Hugh ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the chance to be involved in the debate. The Public Audit Committee is one of the most important committees in the Parliament and its work under th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman)
Lab
I call Jackson Carlaw. Mr Carlaw, you have a tight six minutes.10:03
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con)
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this will be a relatively brief contribution in any event.Like others, I begin by acknowledging the role of the Pub...
John Swinney
SNP
I sympathise entirely with the member’s point but I wonder whether, in the interests of completeness, he will also reflect on the fact that Audit Scotland wa...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
I was just about to mention the cabinet secretary’s reassurance to the chamber that the accuracy of cost estimating has improved. I am happy to hope and beli...
Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD)
LD
The Public Audit Committee is a vital committee of our Parliament. Democracy is about more than simply the right to vote. The ability to scrutinise and chall...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As I was appointed to the Public Audit Committee only in November of last year, I was not part of many of the discussions that shaped the reports that the co...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Lab
First, I tender my apologies. A prior commitment means that, after making this speech, I have to go and meet representatives of a significant organisation in...
John Swinney
SNP
In the interests of maintaining recollections, I point out that the Government’s response to the committee comes from the permanent secretary, not from minis...
Mr McAveety
Lab
That exemplifies the difficult nuances with which we are dealing. When we have, with that understanding, probed some of those folk who have appeared at commi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You should finish now, Mr McAveety.
Mr McAveety
Lab
I hope that the minister will reflect on those things in his response at the end of the debate.10:28
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate. As Jackson Carlaw has indicated, the Scottish Conservatives value very highly the work of the Publi...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Jamie McGrigor talked about good faith. Does he accept that the Government acted with good faith to try to save the event because it already had creditors? I...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
I hardly think that the Government acted in good faith when what was going on was not transparent.The committee plays a vital role in the Parliament’s workin...
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
Debates such as this are significant and have the potential to be very beneficial. The process of producing a report to highlight key themes that have reappe...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Anne McLaughlin
SNP
No.That said, I believe that the Public Audit Committee fulfils a vital function. I agree with Hugh Henry that the committee’s remit ought to be broadened so...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and tender my apologies, because I will have to leave before the end to attend an urgent meeting on a co...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
I apologise to those who will speak in the closing part of the debate because I, too, have a prior engagement and will not be here. School pupils from my con...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Iain Smith
LD
I will just finish this point, then I will let the member in.I was particularly concerned that in the report on the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise t...
Willie Coffey
SNP
The member said that the recognition afforded to the committee was an indication of failures in the system, but it is not, because that is not what audit is ...
Iain Smith
LD
I think that the member misses my point, which is that the awards have come to the committee because attention was drawn to it through its persistence in pri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
You must finish now.
Iain Smith
LD
Let me finish my sentence, Presiding Officer. It is usually years before such debts are written off by a public body; that does not happen immediately. The G...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
I will be staying for the entire debate.It has been an enormous pleasure to serve on the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee for the entire parliamentary ses...