Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 03 March 2011
03 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”
The Public Audit Committee is a vital committee of our Parliament. Democracy is about more than simply the right to vote. The ability to scrutinise and challenge ministers and the Executive—collectively the Government of our nation—is a crucial part of the checks and balances that underpin a modern, effective democracy.
The Public Audit Committee does outstanding work. I will be standing down from Parliament shortly and would like to place on record that it has been a great privilege to work with all members of the committee. However, I give special mention to Murdo Fraser and George Foulkes, and to the convener, Hugh Henry, who does outstanding work on the committee. Thanks should also go to the committee clerks, who do excellent work, and to Robert Black, the Auditor General, and his team at Audit Scotland. As Robert Black recently highlighted, before we had the Scottish Parliament the chances of a senior Scottish civil servant being brought before a scrutiny committee in the Houses of Parliament in London was about as likely as being struck by lightning. That has changed, and the Public Audit Committee regularly scrutinises and challenges ministers and civil servants.
The committee bases its work on the excellent work of Audit Scotland. It has produced many outstanding reports, which have been referred to already this morning. However, I believe that the powers of the committee should be extended to enable it to carry out special inquiries that are not always triggered by Audit Scotland reports and, in certain circumstances, to scrutinise the work of all areas of the public sector, including local government. Scottish ministers do, after all, have the power to intervene when local government goes badly wrong and something as serious as a qualified audit report for a particular council should not be solely the responsibility of the council that is being criticised. Hugh Henry gave a strong example in SPT.
I am impressed by the Danish system of audit and scrutiny, in which recommendations cannot be avoided or wriggled away from by evasive ministers or civil servants. They continue to be worked through and measures that are agreed with the public audit committee must be responded to, because that is built into the Danish system as a fundamental principle.
Our principle in Scotland is that public money should be well spent, wisely spent and, unless there are exceptional reasons, spent with the full knowledge of taxpayers who fund those public services. Openness and full transparency are what we call for.
I want to touch on two areas, the first of which relates to revenue budgets and revenue expenditure. In that area, revenue budgets change year on year so significantly that like-for-like comparison can be very difficult and more continues to need to be done to tackle it. That can be a challenge for ministers as well, but unless we have good year-on-year comparison over an extended period, that is a weakness.
Another area in which the committee has taken a leading initiative is the important process of giving much greater scrutiny to money actually spent rather than simply comparing this year’s budget with last year’s budget. That is an important change.
The second area that I want to touch on relates to capital budgets and capital expenditure. Too often, we get those not just wrong but spectacularly wrong. Major capital projects require regular, hands-on, proactive management. Big projects can have costs that are not updated for years and years. That is difficult to understand or justify, and it is still happening in Scotland. We should be entitled to expect that capital projects are well managed and regularly monitored and that costs are accurate, dependable and regularly updated. In some cases, that continues not to be the case. Some such projects are big and important. There are many examples of spending going wrong in Scotland. Sadly, I suspect that that will continue.
Finally, there are the people involved. The most important point is that there are many excellent staff working in our public services. However, the staff are not exclusively excellent and too often the Public Audit Committee discovers situations in which mediocre civil servants, or good civil servants without the technical skills or experience required, are given major—sometimes momentous—and costly decisions to make, to implement and to deliver. Sometimes, those individuals appear to continue in senior positions or even to receive promotion within the civil service despite their failings or mediocrity. Loyalty to the system sometimes seems to be regarded as more important than expertise, ability and delivery.
It is important that the Public Audit Committee highlights examples of best practice and encourages the very best in all aspects of public service. However, it must also, without fear or favour, continue to shine a light into those murky areas where performance is poor. It must uncover shortcomings and weaknesses, not only of senior civil servants and quango chiefs, but of Government ministers. That is the committee’s duty, and it fulfils that duty with great professionalism and huge dedication. It has been my privilege to serve on it.
10:16
The Public Audit Committee does outstanding work. I will be standing down from Parliament shortly and would like to place on record that it has been a great privilege to work with all members of the committee. However, I give special mention to Murdo Fraser and George Foulkes, and to the convener, Hugh Henry, who does outstanding work on the committee. Thanks should also go to the committee clerks, who do excellent work, and to Robert Black, the Auditor General, and his team at Audit Scotland. As Robert Black recently highlighted, before we had the Scottish Parliament the chances of a senior Scottish civil servant being brought before a scrutiny committee in the Houses of Parliament in London was about as likely as being struck by lightning. That has changed, and the Public Audit Committee regularly scrutinises and challenges ministers and civil servants.
The committee bases its work on the excellent work of Audit Scotland. It has produced many outstanding reports, which have been referred to already this morning. However, I believe that the powers of the committee should be extended to enable it to carry out special inquiries that are not always triggered by Audit Scotland reports and, in certain circumstances, to scrutinise the work of all areas of the public sector, including local government. Scottish ministers do, after all, have the power to intervene when local government goes badly wrong and something as serious as a qualified audit report for a particular council should not be solely the responsibility of the council that is being criticised. Hugh Henry gave a strong example in SPT.
I am impressed by the Danish system of audit and scrutiny, in which recommendations cannot be avoided or wriggled away from by evasive ministers or civil servants. They continue to be worked through and measures that are agreed with the public audit committee must be responded to, because that is built into the Danish system as a fundamental principle.
Our principle in Scotland is that public money should be well spent, wisely spent and, unless there are exceptional reasons, spent with the full knowledge of taxpayers who fund those public services. Openness and full transparency are what we call for.
I want to touch on two areas, the first of which relates to revenue budgets and revenue expenditure. In that area, revenue budgets change year on year so significantly that like-for-like comparison can be very difficult and more continues to need to be done to tackle it. That can be a challenge for ministers as well, but unless we have good year-on-year comparison over an extended period, that is a weakness.
Another area in which the committee has taken a leading initiative is the important process of giving much greater scrutiny to money actually spent rather than simply comparing this year’s budget with last year’s budget. That is an important change.
The second area that I want to touch on relates to capital budgets and capital expenditure. Too often, we get those not just wrong but spectacularly wrong. Major capital projects require regular, hands-on, proactive management. Big projects can have costs that are not updated for years and years. That is difficult to understand or justify, and it is still happening in Scotland. We should be entitled to expect that capital projects are well managed and regularly monitored and that costs are accurate, dependable and regularly updated. In some cases, that continues not to be the case. Some such projects are big and important. There are many examples of spending going wrong in Scotland. Sadly, I suspect that that will continue.
Finally, there are the people involved. The most important point is that there are many excellent staff working in our public services. However, the staff are not exclusively excellent and too often the Public Audit Committee discovers situations in which mediocre civil servants, or good civil servants without the technical skills or experience required, are given major—sometimes momentous—and costly decisions to make, to implement and to deliver. Sometimes, those individuals appear to continue in senior positions or even to receive promotion within the civil service despite their failings or mediocrity. Loyalty to the system sometimes seems to be regarded as more important than expertise, ability and delivery.
It is important that the Public Audit Committee highlights examples of best practice and encourages the very best in all aspects of public service. However, it must also, without fear or favour, continue to shine a light into those murky areas where performance is poor. It must uncover shortcomings and weaknesses, not only of senior civil servants and quango chiefs, but of Government ministers. That is the committee’s duty, and it fulfils that duty with great professionalism and huge dedication. It has been my privilege to serve on it.
10:16
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8005, in the name of Hugh Henry, on “Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”.09:36
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)
Lab
I am delighted to open the first ever debate sponsored by the Public Audit Committee of the Scottish Parliament. Since 1999, and particularly over the past f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Public Audit Committee’s first report of 2011, on the third parliamentary session. I have listened carefully to Hugh ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the chance to be involved in the debate. The Public Audit Committee is one of the most important committees in the Parliament and its work under th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman)
Lab
I call Jackson Carlaw. Mr Carlaw, you have a tight six minutes.10:03
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con)
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this will be a relatively brief contribution in any event.Like others, I begin by acknowledging the role of the Pub...
John Swinney
SNP
I sympathise entirely with the member’s point but I wonder whether, in the interests of completeness, he will also reflect on the fact that Audit Scotland wa...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
I was just about to mention the cabinet secretary’s reassurance to the chamber that the accuracy of cost estimating has improved. I am happy to hope and beli...
Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD)
LD
The Public Audit Committee is a vital committee of our Parliament. Democracy is about more than simply the right to vote. The ability to scrutinise and chall...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As I was appointed to the Public Audit Committee only in November of last year, I was not part of many of the discussions that shaped the reports that the co...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Lab
First, I tender my apologies. A prior commitment means that, after making this speech, I have to go and meet representatives of a significant organisation in...
John Swinney
SNP
In the interests of maintaining recollections, I point out that the Government’s response to the committee comes from the permanent secretary, not from minis...
Mr McAveety
Lab
That exemplifies the difficult nuances with which we are dealing. When we have, with that understanding, probed some of those folk who have appeared at commi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You should finish now, Mr McAveety.
Mr McAveety
Lab
I hope that the minister will reflect on those things in his response at the end of the debate.10:28
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate. As Jackson Carlaw has indicated, the Scottish Conservatives value very highly the work of the Publi...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Jamie McGrigor talked about good faith. Does he accept that the Government acted with good faith to try to save the event because it already had creditors? I...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
I hardly think that the Government acted in good faith when what was going on was not transparent.The committee plays a vital role in the Parliament’s workin...
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
Debates such as this are significant and have the potential to be very beneficial. The process of producing a report to highlight key themes that have reappe...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Anne McLaughlin
SNP
No.That said, I believe that the Public Audit Committee fulfils a vital function. I agree with Hugh Henry that the committee’s remit ought to be broadened so...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and tender my apologies, because I will have to leave before the end to attend an urgent meeting on a co...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
I apologise to those who will speak in the closing part of the debate because I, too, have a prior engagement and will not be here. School pupils from my con...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Iain Smith
LD
I will just finish this point, then I will let the member in.I was particularly concerned that in the report on the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise t...
Willie Coffey
SNP
The member said that the recognition afforded to the committee was an indication of failures in the system, but it is not, because that is not what audit is ...
Iain Smith
LD
I think that the member misses my point, which is that the awards have come to the committee because attention was drawn to it through its persistence in pri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
You must finish now.
Iain Smith
LD
Let me finish my sentence, Presiding Officer. It is usually years before such debts are written off by a public body; that does not happen immediately. The G...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
I will be staying for the entire debate.It has been an enormous pleasure to serve on the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee for the entire parliamentary ses...