Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 03 March 2011
03 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
“Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”
I welcome the chance to be involved in the debate. The Public Audit Committee is one of the most important committees in the Parliament and its work under the leadership of its convener, my colleague Hugh Henry, has rightly been recognised.
During session 3, the committee has considered and reported on matters such as free personal and nursing care, the financial fiasco surrounding the gathering event, police call management, and progress on planning for the delivery of the 2014 Commonwealth games. In total, it has considered 15 new reports from the Auditor General, of which 13 have been section 23 reports, which examine the economy, efficiency and effectiveness of the public sector, and two have been section 22 reports, which look at the audit of accounts of individual public bodies. As we have heard, all those issues are important and have raised more than a few concerns in Scotland. The committee concluded that several of the issues on which it recommended that action be taken have arisen in more than one report.
The issues have been grouped into three key themes, which we have heard Mr Henry and the cabinet secretary comment on. I, too, will start with transparency. With other members, I have long called for greater transparency in our dealings with quangos and other public bodies, such as in the salary and bonus payments to senior staff of Scottish Enterprise and Scottish Water and those within the senior management ranks of the national health service. As the cabinet secretary mentioned, the climate is changing. During times of financial constraint, the transparency of decisions on the expenditure of public money becomes essential as attention focuses on ensuring that value for money is achieved. That is particularly the case when it comes to delivering public services with reduced resources. Throughout the public sector, greater transparency is becoming the norm, and alarming as some of the stories may be—such as the one about £20,000 being paid to a celebrity hypnotist by Skills Development Scotland to tell unemployed teenagers how to think—the reality is that we need that transparency. It is, after all, taxpayers’ money that is being spent.
The committee has concerns that, despite the increased public scrutiny of how and where taxpayer funds are used, it has not always been able to assure itself that public funds have been spent in accordance with the “Scottish Public Finance Manual” or that the expenditure has represented effective, efficient and economical use of the money.
The ability to scrutinise and hold to account those responsible for the use of public funds is directly influenced by the availability of information. As Mr Henry said, the committee has found on occasion that its ability to hold the Scottish Government and public bodies to account has been compromised by difficulties in obtaining the relevant financial and decision-making information.
Frankly, that is not good enough. One clear example was from the agreement to extend the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise. Much of the committee’s report focused on the declaration and management of the share interests of the former director of finance at Transport Scotland during the negotiations over the franchise extension, the circumstances of his departure and the quality of the evidence given to the committee. In particular, the committee expressed concerns that the disclosure of potential conflicts of interest did not take place much earlier during the former finance director’s tenure.
The committee recommended that the Scottish Government consider whether standard processes beyond those attached to the recruitment procedures should be adopted to manage potential conflicts of interests. It also recommended that Transport Scotland ensure that minutes of meetings are robust and more accurately reflect the participation of individuals with a pecuniary interest in the business of the meeting.
Like others, I watched the Public Audit Committee meeting yesterday, at which it took evidence from Transport Scotland. I have to say that I remain far from impressed with evidence from Transport Scotland’s senior officials, which it could be said still leads to a certain lack of transparency.
In another example, on 3 March 2010, the committee published its report on the Cairngorm funicular railway, commenting on issues arising in relation to risk identification and evaluation, costs and benefits, the timing of Highlands and Islands Enterprise’s actions, and future plans for the railway. Again, it was difficult for the committee to gain information because of commercial confidentiality. It recommended that the Scottish Government consider producing guidance on how public bodies working in partnership with private organisations, such as banks, could approach the issue of financial confidentiality in a way that promotes transparency in the use of public funds.
The Public Services Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 imposes wide-ranging duties on the Scottish Government and listed public bodies to publish a wide range of financial and other information. It is important that we can identify expenditure on things such as public relations, overseas travel, hospitality and entertainment, and external consultancy. As someone who in a past life was involved in bidding for and securing contracts in the public sector, I have always been conscious of the need for accountability.
We have to come into the real world. After financial disasters such as Enron, the corporate reporting environment has changed dramatically in recent years. We cannot hide behind the public sector banner. Corporate reporting should be our byword. Government can no longer be restricted to a few press comments and financial statements if pushed; a broad range of additional information must also be disclosed.
Transparency enables Government, ministers, the public, creditors and market participants to evaluate the condition of an entity, be it a Government programme or a non-departmental public body. Transparency increases confidence and it is through work such as that of the Public Audit Committee that the Parliament can be confident that that is happening.
During session 3, the committee has considered and reported on matters such as free personal and nursing care, the financial fiasco surrounding the gathering event, police call management, and progress on planning for the delivery of the 2014 Commonwealth games. In total, it has considered 15 new reports from the Auditor General, of which 13 have been section 23 reports, which examine the economy, efficiency and effectiveness of the public sector, and two have been section 22 reports, which look at the audit of accounts of individual public bodies. As we have heard, all those issues are important and have raised more than a few concerns in Scotland. The committee concluded that several of the issues on which it recommended that action be taken have arisen in more than one report.
The issues have been grouped into three key themes, which we have heard Mr Henry and the cabinet secretary comment on. I, too, will start with transparency. With other members, I have long called for greater transparency in our dealings with quangos and other public bodies, such as in the salary and bonus payments to senior staff of Scottish Enterprise and Scottish Water and those within the senior management ranks of the national health service. As the cabinet secretary mentioned, the climate is changing. During times of financial constraint, the transparency of decisions on the expenditure of public money becomes essential as attention focuses on ensuring that value for money is achieved. That is particularly the case when it comes to delivering public services with reduced resources. Throughout the public sector, greater transparency is becoming the norm, and alarming as some of the stories may be—such as the one about £20,000 being paid to a celebrity hypnotist by Skills Development Scotland to tell unemployed teenagers how to think—the reality is that we need that transparency. It is, after all, taxpayers’ money that is being spent.
The committee has concerns that, despite the increased public scrutiny of how and where taxpayer funds are used, it has not always been able to assure itself that public funds have been spent in accordance with the “Scottish Public Finance Manual” or that the expenditure has represented effective, efficient and economical use of the money.
The ability to scrutinise and hold to account those responsible for the use of public funds is directly influenced by the availability of information. As Mr Henry said, the committee has found on occasion that its ability to hold the Scottish Government and public bodies to account has been compromised by difficulties in obtaining the relevant financial and decision-making information.
Frankly, that is not good enough. One clear example was from the agreement to extend the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise. Much of the committee’s report focused on the declaration and management of the share interests of the former director of finance at Transport Scotland during the negotiations over the franchise extension, the circumstances of his departure and the quality of the evidence given to the committee. In particular, the committee expressed concerns that the disclosure of potential conflicts of interest did not take place much earlier during the former finance director’s tenure.
The committee recommended that the Scottish Government consider whether standard processes beyond those attached to the recruitment procedures should be adopted to manage potential conflicts of interests. It also recommended that Transport Scotland ensure that minutes of meetings are robust and more accurately reflect the participation of individuals with a pecuniary interest in the business of the meeting.
Like others, I watched the Public Audit Committee meeting yesterday, at which it took evidence from Transport Scotland. I have to say that I remain far from impressed with evidence from Transport Scotland’s senior officials, which it could be said still leads to a certain lack of transparency.
In another example, on 3 March 2010, the committee published its report on the Cairngorm funicular railway, commenting on issues arising in relation to risk identification and evaluation, costs and benefits, the timing of Highlands and Islands Enterprise’s actions, and future plans for the railway. Again, it was difficult for the committee to gain information because of commercial confidentiality. It recommended that the Scottish Government consider producing guidance on how public bodies working in partnership with private organisations, such as banks, could approach the issue of financial confidentiality in a way that promotes transparency in the use of public funds.
The Public Services Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 imposes wide-ranging duties on the Scottish Government and listed public bodies to publish a wide range of financial and other information. It is important that we can identify expenditure on things such as public relations, overseas travel, hospitality and entertainment, and external consultancy. As someone who in a past life was involved in bidding for and securing contracts in the public sector, I have always been conscious of the need for accountability.
We have to come into the real world. After financial disasters such as Enron, the corporate reporting environment has changed dramatically in recent years. We cannot hide behind the public sector banner. Corporate reporting should be our byword. Government can no longer be restricted to a few press comments and financial statements if pushed; a broad range of additional information must also be disclosed.
Transparency enables Government, ministers, the public, creditors and market participants to evaluate the condition of an entity, be it a Government programme or a non-departmental public body. Transparency increases confidence and it is through work such as that of the Public Audit Committee that the Parliament can be confident that that is happening.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-8005, in the name of Hugh Henry, on “Session 3 reports of the Public Audit Committee—key themes”.09:36
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab)
Lab
I am delighted to open the first ever debate sponsored by the Public Audit Committee of the Scottish Parliament. Since 1999, and particularly over the past f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Public Audit Committee’s first report of 2011, on the third parliamentary session. I have listened carefully to Hugh ...
David Whitton (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the chance to be involved in the debate. The Public Audit Committee is one of the most important committees in the Parliament and its work under th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman)
Lab
I call Jackson Carlaw. Mr Carlaw, you have a tight six minutes.10:03
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con)
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this will be a relatively brief contribution in any event.Like others, I begin by acknowledging the role of the Pub...
John Swinney
SNP
I sympathise entirely with the member’s point but I wonder whether, in the interests of completeness, he will also reflect on the fact that Audit Scotland wa...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
I was just about to mention the cabinet secretary’s reassurance to the chamber that the accuracy of cost estimating has improved. I am happy to hope and beli...
Nicol Stephen (Aberdeen South) (LD)
LD
The Public Audit Committee is a vital committee of our Parliament. Democracy is about more than simply the right to vote. The ability to scrutinise and chall...
Jamie Hepburn (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
As I was appointed to the Public Audit Committee only in November of last year, I was not part of many of the discussions that shaped the reports that the co...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
Lab
First, I tender my apologies. A prior commitment means that, after making this speech, I have to go and meet representatives of a significant organisation in...
John Swinney
SNP
In the interests of maintaining recollections, I point out that the Government’s response to the committee comes from the permanent secretary, not from minis...
Mr McAveety
Lab
That exemplifies the difficult nuances with which we are dealing. When we have, with that understanding, probed some of those folk who have appeared at commi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You should finish now, Mr McAveety.
Mr McAveety
Lab
I hope that the minister will reflect on those things in his response at the end of the debate.10:28
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate. As Jackson Carlaw has indicated, the Scottish Conservatives value very highly the work of the Publi...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Jamie McGrigor talked about good faith. Does he accept that the Government acted with good faith to try to save the event because it already had creditors? I...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
I hardly think that the Government acted in good faith when what was going on was not transparent.The committee plays a vital role in the Parliament’s workin...
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
Debates such as this are significant and have the potential to be very beneficial. The process of producing a report to highlight key themes that have reappe...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Anne McLaughlin
SNP
No.That said, I believe that the Public Audit Committee fulfils a vital function. I agree with Hugh Henry that the committee’s remit ought to be broadened so...
James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate and tender my apologies, because I will have to leave before the end to attend an urgent meeting on a co...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
I apologise to those who will speak in the closing part of the debate because I, too, have a prior engagement and will not be here. School pupils from my con...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Iain Smith
LD
I will just finish this point, then I will let the member in.I was particularly concerned that in the report on the First ScotRail passenger rail franchise t...
Willie Coffey
SNP
The member said that the recognition afforded to the committee was an indication of failures in the system, but it is not, because that is not what audit is ...
Iain Smith
LD
I think that the member misses my point, which is that the awards have come to the committee because attention was drawn to it through its persistence in pri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
You must finish now.
Iain Smith
LD
Let me finish my sentence, Presiding Officer. It is usually years before such debts are written off by a public body; that does not happen immediately. The G...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
SNP
I will be staying for the entire debate.It has been an enormous pleasure to serve on the Parliament’s Public Audit Committee for the entire parliamentary ses...