Committee
Justice Committee 08 February 2011
08 Feb 2011 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
This is an extraordinarily difficult area, as we all know. We are faced with an almost bewildering number of alternatives, which does credit to Rhoda Grant’s attempts to get a definition that will work. The minister’s offer to consider further the issues that amendment 18 addresses, not least the time limit on the power of arrest, is helpful and I support it.At least from my perspective, the phraseology about the non-platonic nature of relationships and the stuff—for goodness’ sake—in amendment 15C, which tries to define in almost obscene detail what a sexual relationship is, frankly do not lend themselves to any sort of judicial determination. In dealing with such issues, a clear-cut situation is required that is based on objective, outside evidence. Therefore, I do not think that the provisions are workable in practice.12:30 Rhoda Grant also used the odd phrase “romantic relationship”. I would have thought that the one thing that a domestic abuse situation would not be is romantic, although I understand what she is trying to get at in terms of the relationship’s not amounting to cohabitation. The minister has said that he will consider the issue.There are several other minor points to mention. New subsection (2) in amendment 15 refers to the purposes of the interdict, but it is not entirely clearly whether“protecting A from domestic abuse by B”and“prohibiting B from entering”are alternatives. There could be odd consequences from that, one way or another. Furthermore, a definitional section that goes on for the best part of two pages does not add clarity for those who have to operate the matter in that kind of way. The same applies to some of the other things.The minister’s definition deals in a traditional and satisfactory way with both same-sex and opposite-sex partnerships of the cohabiting variety as well as of the marriage variety. The fact that it refers to a person who is or was in such partnerships also covers situations in which people have split up. The situation that it does not entirely deal with, which Rhoda Grant has touched on, is that in which there has never been cohabitation but in which there may be issues of on-going harassment because one partner feels that they have power over the other partner in the relationship. It may be that that area simply cannot be dealt with in the bill because of its complexity, and there may be other ways of tackling it. The minister is going to consider that, and I will be interested in the outcome of the discussions.I do not think that amendment 15 quite does the trick.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Under agenda item 3, we have the only planned day of stage 2 proceedings on the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill. There are 22 amendments—including, unusually,...
The Convener
Con
Section 1 is on non-harassment orders in cases of domestic abuse. Amendment 1, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 2, 3 and 8.
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I want to put on record my thanks to the minister and his team for their assistance in drafting many of the amendments and for their help with technical issu...
James Kelly
Lab
I indicate my support for all the amendments that Rhoda Grant has lodged in the group. As she outlined, she has taken account of the stage 1 evidence and deb...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I, too, indicate support for Rhoda Grant’s amendments in the group. The amendments relate to a difficult part of the bill; there are good arguments on both s...
The Convener
Con
The issue concerned me, not because I had any particular issues about the direction of travel—far from it—but because of definitional problems that could hav...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
Thank you, convener. I am pleased to work with Rhoda Grant, precisely as she has indicated. At the stage 1 debate, I said that we were happy to do that. Both...
The Convener
Con
I invite Rhoda Grant to wind up and to indicate whether she will press or withdraw amendment 1, although the answer is fairly self-evident.
Rhoda Grant
Lab
Indeed. There is no reason for me to make further comment at this point.Amendment 1 agreed to.Amendments 2 and 3 moved—Rhoda Grant—and agreed to.Section 1, a...
The Convener
Con
Section 2 amendments are on the provision of civil legal aid in cases of domestic abuse and the monitoring of such provision. Amendment 13, in the name of Rh...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
There is anecdotal evidence that, because of financial constraint, victims of domestic abuse are not able to access the protection that is available. That wa...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
Amendments 4 and 12 delete section 2 from the bill and make a consequential amendment to the long title. The Government has been opposed to section 2, which ...
Robert Brown
LD
I substantially agree with the minister on these matters. It is important that people who suffer domestic abuse should have urgent access to legal aid as req...
James Kelly
Lab
I support Rhoda Grant’s amendments 13 and 14. She has taken a pragmatic view on section 2. Concerns were expressed in evidence and in debate about singling o...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I very much agree with Rhoda Grant’s intention in introducing the bill and I, too, hope that it will have positive, practical effects. For the reasons given ...
The Convener
Con
It was clear at the stage 1 debate that there were difficulties with regard to section 2. Rhoda Grant has clearly recognised that, because amendment 13 would...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I have listened carefully to the committee’s and the minister’s comments. I am also grateful to the minister for putting on record the current situation, whi...
The Convener
Con
Let us deal with matters as we get to them. Believe me, it will make life simpler.Amendment 13, by agreement, withdrawn.Amendment 4 moved—Fergus Ewing—and ag...
The Convener
Con
We move on to interdicts, breach of which is an offence. Amendment 15, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 15A to 15C, 16, 5, 5A, 17, 7 an...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I will explain the background to the amendments. The committee and the minister supported the policy objectives of section 3 at stage 1, but there were a num...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I am most happy to consider the anecdotal evidence and other issues that the member in charge mentioned in relation to the previous group and will also ask S...
Robert Brown
LD
This is an extraordinarily difficult area, as we all know. We are faced with an almost bewildering number of alternatives, which does credit to Rhoda Grant’s...
James Kelly
Lab
There is no doubt that this is a complex area and that we have a complex set of amendments, which leads on from the proposed deletion of section 4. The bill ...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I support amendment 5, which deals with the problem of having to have a definition. It offers a tight definition of domestic abuse that most of us understand...
Nigel Don
SNP
Having heard Stewart Maxwell’s comments, I endorse everything that he has just said.
The Convener
Con
As has already been commented upon, we have before us a plethora of amendments that are predicated on the difficulties of definition. We anticipated that at ...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I am grateful to the committee for spending time on this issue, which I recognise is not straightforward. I am also grateful to the minister for saying that ...
The Convener
Con
We are talking about amendment 15A.
Rhoda Grant
Lab
Can I withdraw amendment 15A?
The Convener
Con
We will come to amendment 15 in a moment. This is going to be complicated.Amendment 15A, by agreement, withdrawn.Amendments 15B and 15C not moved.