Committee
Justice Committee 08 February 2011
08 Feb 2011 · S3 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
It was clear at the stage 1 debate that there were difficulties with regard to section 2. Rhoda Grant has clearly recognised that, because amendment 13 would remove section 2 and substitute a wording that Rhoda Grant feels would assure what we all want, namely that the victims of this type of crime will have easy and ready access to legal aid. When someone is concerned enough to take the trouble to try to come up with a satisfactory solution, as Rhoda Grant has done, it is incumbent on us all to give the matter the greatest consideration. I have given the matter considerable thought, I can assure you, but the difficulty with amendment 13 is that it would make the situation less clear. There is also a cost implication, because I am not naive enough to think that all the costs would be recovered, despite amendment 13’s provisions in that regard. As I said, a lot of work has gone into amendment 13, but at the end of the day I cannot be persuaded that it is the appropriate way forward.I can see amendment 14’s direction of travel, but the problem that it addresses is remedied by the fact that the regulations that will apply to the Scottish Legal Aid Board will enable the appropriate figures and the monitoring of the situation to be well scrutinised by members of the Scottish Parliament. On that basis, I am not minded to support amendment 14, either, although I acknowledge the thought process behind the amendment. Amendment 4, which of course is the minister’s amendment, will remove section 2 simpliciter. I am persuaded that that is the way forward.I ask Rhoda Grant to wind up and indicate whether she will press or withdraw her amendments.12:15
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Under agenda item 3, we have the only planned day of stage 2 proceedings on the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill. There are 22 amendments—including, unusually,...
The Convener
Con
Section 1 is on non-harassment orders in cases of domestic abuse. Amendment 1, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 2, 3 and 8.
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I want to put on record my thanks to the minister and his team for their assistance in drafting many of the amendments and for their help with technical issu...
James Kelly
Lab
I indicate my support for all the amendments that Rhoda Grant has lodged in the group. As she outlined, she has taken account of the stage 1 evidence and deb...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I, too, indicate support for Rhoda Grant’s amendments in the group. The amendments relate to a difficult part of the bill; there are good arguments on both s...
The Convener
Con
The issue concerned me, not because I had any particular issues about the direction of travel—far from it—but because of definitional problems that could hav...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
Thank you, convener. I am pleased to work with Rhoda Grant, precisely as she has indicated. At the stage 1 debate, I said that we were happy to do that. Both...
The Convener
Con
I invite Rhoda Grant to wind up and to indicate whether she will press or withdraw amendment 1, although the answer is fairly self-evident.
Rhoda Grant
Lab
Indeed. There is no reason for me to make further comment at this point.Amendment 1 agreed to.Amendments 2 and 3 moved—Rhoda Grant—and agreed to.Section 1, a...
The Convener
Con
Section 2 amendments are on the provision of civil legal aid in cases of domestic abuse and the monitoring of such provision. Amendment 13, in the name of Rh...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
There is anecdotal evidence that, because of financial constraint, victims of domestic abuse are not able to access the protection that is available. That wa...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
Amendments 4 and 12 delete section 2 from the bill and make a consequential amendment to the long title. The Government has been opposed to section 2, which ...
Robert Brown
LD
I substantially agree with the minister on these matters. It is important that people who suffer domestic abuse should have urgent access to legal aid as req...
James Kelly
Lab
I support Rhoda Grant’s amendments 13 and 14. She has taken a pragmatic view on section 2. Concerns were expressed in evidence and in debate about singling o...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I very much agree with Rhoda Grant’s intention in introducing the bill and I, too, hope that it will have positive, practical effects. For the reasons given ...
The Convener
Con
It was clear at the stage 1 debate that there were difficulties with regard to section 2. Rhoda Grant has clearly recognised that, because amendment 13 would...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I have listened carefully to the committee’s and the minister’s comments. I am also grateful to the minister for putting on record the current situation, whi...
The Convener
Con
Let us deal with matters as we get to them. Believe me, it will make life simpler.Amendment 13, by agreement, withdrawn.Amendment 4 moved—Fergus Ewing—and ag...
The Convener
Con
We move on to interdicts, breach of which is an offence. Amendment 15, in the name of Rhoda Grant, is grouped with amendments 15A to 15C, 16, 5, 5A, 17, 7 an...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I will explain the background to the amendments. The committee and the minister supported the policy objectives of section 3 at stage 1, but there were a num...
Fergus Ewing
SNP
I am most happy to consider the anecdotal evidence and other issues that the member in charge mentioned in relation to the previous group and will also ask S...
Robert Brown
LD
This is an extraordinarily difficult area, as we all know. We are faced with an almost bewildering number of alternatives, which does credit to Rhoda Grant’s...
James Kelly
Lab
There is no doubt that this is a complex area and that we have a complex set of amendments, which leads on from the proposed deletion of section 4. The bill ...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I support amendment 5, which deals with the problem of having to have a definition. It offers a tight definition of domestic abuse that most of us understand...
Nigel Don
SNP
Having heard Stewart Maxwell’s comments, I endorse everything that he has just said.
The Convener
Con
As has already been commented upon, we have before us a plethora of amendments that are predicated on the difficulties of definition. We anticipated that at ...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I am grateful to the committee for spending time on this issue, which I recognise is not straightforward. I am also grateful to the minister for saying that ...
The Convener
Con
We are talking about amendment 15A.
Rhoda Grant
Lab
Can I withdraw amendment 15A?
The Convener
Con
We will come to amendment 15 in a moment. This is going to be complicated.Amendment 15A, by agreement, withdrawn.Amendments 15B and 15C not moved.