Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 10 March 2011
10 Mar 2011 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Local Services
I think that Alison McInnes dealt satisfactorily with the matter in last Thursday’s debate, when she said:
“the proposals for a national police force have no basis in facts or evidence. The minister seems to have started with what he wants to achieve—more political control of the police and more Government centralisation—and is working backwards to try to justify it.”—[Official Report, 3 March 2011; c 33960-1.]
There is no such ambiguity for the Labour Party—or the Conservatives, for that matter. Central control over the police is manna from heaven as far as Richard Baker is concerned. No longer does the Labour Party support nationalisation of the commanding heights of the economy, but when it comes to the police and local care services, Labour members are, by instinct and conviction, card-carrying members on centralisation and the top-down approach.
The SNP Government’s move to a single police force has been condemned by police chiefs across the nation. David Strang, the chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police, called the Scottish Government figures on the costs involved in a single police force, which were contained in the interim report of the sustainable policing project team, “irresponsibly misleading” and
“not supported by the evidence”.
The figures had to be withdrawn from the consultation document because of widespread criticism from police leaders throughout Scotland.
I know, because Richard Baker told me, that at this very moment a new person, whom I think Richard Baker has met, is producing new figures, but I say to the Scottish Government that the process no longer has credibility. It is time for the police centralisation document, “A Consultation on the Future of Policing in Scotland”, to be withdrawn and for an independent review to be commissioned, to establish the real costs of moving to a centralised model. That was the demand of a delegate at the Unison conference earlier this week, who represents police civilian staff, who are often overlooked in the current arguments. Those people are right to demand the withdrawal of the consultation, because the cabinet secretary’s plans will affect the lives of people who are doing real jobs and carrying out vital functions in communities.
I accept the views that are expressed in the amendments about policing having changed during the past 35 years and about structures being less important than services. Liberal Democrats are entirely open to sensible, evidence-based discussion on sharing back-office functions, when that can create savings, on flattening management structures, when that makes sense, and even on structural reorganisation, when there is a compelling public case for it.
However, I reject utterly the view that the current wave of centralisation is driven by financial cuts. It is driven by dogma. The current Scottish budget of £32 billion is rather more, even in real terms, than the £14 billion that we had in 1999. Indeed, it is more than the growing resource that we had in every year until about 2005. On a more specific point, police restructuring will not deliver net savings for at least four or five years, as far as I can see, by which time we will be out of the current comprehensive spending review period and—I hope—into a period of more promising finances.
Restructuring should be driven by our view of what the service should look like and should do, and it should provide a long-term, sustainable arrangement; it should not be directed by short-term pressures. Restructuring is likely to cost an arm and a leg, as we have seen in most public sector reorganisations. It will lead to higher salaries at the top, more bureaucrats running the super-duper new organisation, a spanking new headquarters, huge redundancy payments and an organisation that stops focusing on policing for at least a couple of years until everything settles down.
How much more time can I take, Presiding Officer?
Members: Two seconds.
“the proposals for a national police force have no basis in facts or evidence. The minister seems to have started with what he wants to achieve—more political control of the police and more Government centralisation—and is working backwards to try to justify it.”—[Official Report, 3 March 2011; c 33960-1.]
There is no such ambiguity for the Labour Party—or the Conservatives, for that matter. Central control over the police is manna from heaven as far as Richard Baker is concerned. No longer does the Labour Party support nationalisation of the commanding heights of the economy, but when it comes to the police and local care services, Labour members are, by instinct and conviction, card-carrying members on centralisation and the top-down approach.
The SNP Government’s move to a single police force has been condemned by police chiefs across the nation. David Strang, the chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police, called the Scottish Government figures on the costs involved in a single police force, which were contained in the interim report of the sustainable policing project team, “irresponsibly misleading” and
“not supported by the evidence”.
The figures had to be withdrawn from the consultation document because of widespread criticism from police leaders throughout Scotland.
I know, because Richard Baker told me, that at this very moment a new person, whom I think Richard Baker has met, is producing new figures, but I say to the Scottish Government that the process no longer has credibility. It is time for the police centralisation document, “A Consultation on the Future of Policing in Scotland”, to be withdrawn and for an independent review to be commissioned, to establish the real costs of moving to a centralised model. That was the demand of a delegate at the Unison conference earlier this week, who represents police civilian staff, who are often overlooked in the current arguments. Those people are right to demand the withdrawal of the consultation, because the cabinet secretary’s plans will affect the lives of people who are doing real jobs and carrying out vital functions in communities.
I accept the views that are expressed in the amendments about policing having changed during the past 35 years and about structures being less important than services. Liberal Democrats are entirely open to sensible, evidence-based discussion on sharing back-office functions, when that can create savings, on flattening management structures, when that makes sense, and even on structural reorganisation, when there is a compelling public case for it.
However, I reject utterly the view that the current wave of centralisation is driven by financial cuts. It is driven by dogma. The current Scottish budget of £32 billion is rather more, even in real terms, than the £14 billion that we had in 1999. Indeed, it is more than the growing resource that we had in every year until about 2005. On a more specific point, police restructuring will not deliver net savings for at least four or five years, as far as I can see, by which time we will be out of the current comprehensive spending review period and—I hope—into a period of more promising finances.
Restructuring should be driven by our view of what the service should look like and should do, and it should provide a long-term, sustainable arrangement; it should not be directed by short-term pressures. Restructuring is likely to cost an arm and a leg, as we have seen in most public sector reorganisations. It will lead to higher salaries at the top, more bureaucrats running the super-duper new organisation, a spanking new headquarters, huge redundancy payments and an organisation that stops focusing on policing for at least a couple of years until everything settles down.
How much more time can I take, Presiding Officer?
Members: Two seconds.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a Scottish Liberal Democrat Party debate on local services.09:15
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
LD
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The Minister for Community Safety (Fergus Ewing)
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Will Mr Brown give way?
Robert Brown
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Fergus Ewing
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Robert Brown
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Dave Thompson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
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Will the member give way?
Robert Brown
LD
I am happy to give way to Dave Thompson, so that he can explain his position on the matter.
Dave Thompson
SNP
I thank the member. Does he accept that a consultation is going on? Has he read the consultation paper? Does he expect to contribute to the consultation?
Robert Brown
LD
I think that Alison McInnes dealt satisfactorily with the matter in last Thursday’s debate, when she said:“the proposals for a national police force have no ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
You can have five more minutes, Mr Brown.
Robert Brown
LD
Thank you.The consultation claims that there would be savings of between £81 million and £197 million. However, the Association of Chief Police Officers in S...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab)
Lab
Will Robert Brown take an intervention?
Robert Brown
LD
Yes, all right.
George Foulkes
Lab
Robert Brown is talking about the elderly. Does he support the policy announced by Tavish Scott to cut concessionary fares for the elderly?
Robert Brown
LD
Sorry, I did not catch that. Cuts to what?
George Foulkes
Lab
At the recent party conference, Robert Brown’s party leader said that the Liberal Democrats planned to cut concessionary fares for the elderly.
Robert Brown
LD
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Will the member give way on that point?
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The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
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Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
LD
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Kenny MacAskill
SNP
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Robert Brown
LD
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Kenny MacAskill
SNP
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Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
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Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD)
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