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Committee

Finance Committee 25 January 2011

25 Jan 2011 · S3 · Finance Committee
Item of business
Scottish Variable Rate Inquiry
McConnell, Jack Lab Motherwell and Wishaw Watch on SPTV
I want to outline briefly, mostly from memory, what took place in summer 1999 when I was appointed as the first finance minister in the new Parliament and the new Scottish Government. I should probably say by way of a preface that I had throughout the 1990s been involved in the design of the legislation that created the Parliament, and specifically in the discussions about the tax power. I therefore had some experience in advance of May 1999 of why the power had been created and the democratic purpose for which it was designed.I was appointed Minister for Finance shortly after the election in May 1999 and was immediately notified by officials. I am afraid that I do not have dates because there do not appear to be any papers on the Scottish Government file that relates to this period—certainly none has been provided to me in advance of this inquiry.However, I recall very clearly that there were two immediate issues that needed my attention. One was the creation of the new financial procedures for the Parliament, which later became the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000. The second issue was the decision on what to do about the infrastructure for the tax varying power. The United Kingdom Government—I think that the minister involved was Henry McLeish—had put in place an infrastructure in advance of the 1999 election in anticipation that at least one party might propose using the tax power, so there had to be a state of readiness.Some time in early June 1999, within a fortnight or so of my becoming Minister for Finance, there was a meeting between me and Donald Dewar—I think that Jim Wallace might also have been involved, as Deputy First Minister—at which I made a recommendation on the way ahead. Officials had provided me with options that ranged from one extreme, which was to maintain a full infrastructure and would be quite expensive, to the other, which was to abandon all the infrastructure. That was the cheapest option, of course, but in my view it was undemocratic. I made a recommendation to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, which they accepted, and the recommendation was subsequently communicated to, and accepted by, the Cabinet. I informed the Parliament in a parliamentary statement on 24 June.It is worth saying that in my mind—and in the minds of Donald Dewar and Jim Wallace, in my memory—there was never any question of not having some basic infrastructure in place for democratic reasons, and there was never any question of not communicating that decision to Parliament as quickly as possible.The statement on 24 June covered both issues: the bill that became the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000 and the tax-varying power. Members of the committee might not have seen the statement among the paperwork for the meeting, so I will mention two or three points that I made. I made it clear that we had made a decision that would“take account of the possibility that a future Scottish Executive might decide to use the tax-varying power”,and that we had“concluded that it would be financially irresponsible and politically unacceptable to abandon all the implementation work that has already been done.”I said that we did not want to deny any party the opportunity, should they succeed in forming an Administration, to use the power during the four-year session or subsequently. At the time, the Scottish National Party was the main Opposition party and was proposing to use the tax power, so that was the example that I used, but it could have been any party.I also told the Parliament that we had“devised an option that would allow the tax to be introduced in the financial year immediately following a Scottish election”—that is, if the election was held in May the tax could be introduced in the following April, should the Scottish Government choose to do that. That was the option that I had recommended to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and which had been accepted by them. It was based on advice that changes could not be introduced mid-financial year, so we had devised a system that would allow the changes to be made as quickly as possible.I told the Parliament that the option would have an annual running cost of about £2 million to £2.5 million. David Davidson MSP, who was then the Conservative finance spokesperson, asked the second question following the statement, which was to ask why we would not scrap all preparation, because no one would ever use the power. In response, I said that it was a matter of democracy. I said:“We will keep a basic infrastructure in place. That is right because it is democratic.”—Official Report, 24 June 1999; c 811, 815.That is where the matter was left that day. Following that day, over a long period there seemed to be a cross-party consensus that we had done the right thing. I do not think that there were ever any votes in Parliament or challenges on the issue.

In the same item of business

The Convener SNP
Item 2 is to conclude the evidence taking on our Scottish variable rate inquiry. First, I welcome to the committee three former finance ministers: Andy Kerr ...
Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
I want to outline briefly, mostly from memory, what took place in summer 1999 when I was appointed as the first finance minister in the new Parliament and th...
Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab) Lab
My evidence will be brief. I refer members to the note of 7 July 2003 from Richard Dennis. Following the election in that year, I had a straightforward role,...
Tom McCabe (Hamilton South) (Lab) Lab
Good afternoon, everyone. Papers on the Scottish variable rate that the former finance ministers who are present today have requested and papers that the Sco...
The Convener SNP
The cabinet secretary will have the opportunity to respond when he appears before the committee.HM Revenue and Customs told the committee that it could“put t...
Jack McConnell Lab
I should probably answer that question, given that I presented to Parliament the bill to establish the budget cycle back in 1999, as you will remember. The b...
Tom McCabe Lab
I am sure that the committee understands the chronology, but it is probably important to clarify it. An incoming Administration may announce its intentions i...
Andy Kerr Lab
I have a fairly simple point to add. If a party campaigns to either increase or decrease taxation in Scotland, it will present a budget in some form that wou...
Jack McConnell Lab
I am sorry to come back in again, convener, but it is important to remember—I have always been keen to ensure that we are clear about this—that it is possibl...
The Convener SNP
Given the evidence that we heard from HMRC, it still bothers me that, time-wise, the bits do not quite fit.Given that it is for the Scottish Parliament to de...
Jack McConnell Lab
The arrangements comprise the following: the creation of the legislation, which happens in the cycle every autumn, as you say; the possibility or—in my view—...
The Convener SNP
I throw the questioning open to members.
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP) SNP
I am looking back to 1999, so I think that my question is for Lord McConnell, but if I have got that wrong, the other former finance ministers might want to ...
Jack McConnell Lab
I will comment on what happened in the year before the Scottish election in May 1999. I do not have access to the papers on that, because the Parliament had ...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I want to widen the question and ask about the other money. I think that we reckoned that, over the piece, £25 million was spent on the SVR. When that money ...
Andy Kerr Lab
We should bear in mind what Lord McConnell said in response to your previous question about predicting the cost of information technology systems, which is a...
Tom McCabe Lab
As I said, I was aware that discussions were on-going. I was never under any illusion that if there was to be a substantial overhaul of the infrastructure fo...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
That deals with the issue as far as the capital is concerned. At the end of the day, we had no assurances.As far as readiness is concerned, Sarah Walker told...
Jack McConnell Lab
Who is Sarah Walker?
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
She is from HMRC—she gave evidence two weeks ago.
Jack McConnell Lab
That is different from what the convener said. The convener said that HMRC’s evidence was that if a decision had been made in May or June 2007, it would have...
Tom McCabe Lab
I might be able to clarify that. As I said, the position was that the discussions were on-going. Officials were not in a position in which they felt that the...
The Convener SNP
Let me clarify something. Tom McCabe said to Sarah Walker:“But it was possible to implement the system in 2008—you could have done it.”Sarah Walker replied:“...
Tom McCabe Lab
If that is what she said, convener, she may have been confused. Her reply contradicts the ministerial briefing note that was given to incoming ministers on 1...
The Convener SNP
That will be noted in the Official Report.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I think that we are taking off, because that was not the point that I was trying to make. My question was whether given Sarah Walker’s evidence to the commit...
Jack McConnell Lab
Yes.
Andy Kerr Lab
Yes.
Tom McCabe Lab
Yes.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
That is useful. What checks did the ministers make over the years when they were making payments to HMRC to ensure that there was 10-month functionality, giv...