Committee
Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee 19 January 2011
19 Jan 2011 · S3 · Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee
Item of business
Public Records (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Fiona Hyslop (Minister for Culture and External Affairs)
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Yes, I have. I thank you for the opportunity to get some things on the record that I think will be helpful for the committee in its deliberations on the bill.The Public Records (Scotland) Bill is about improving the management of records by public authorities, but it also has—as I think you have heard this morning—an important moral dimension. Tom Shaw’s compelling report and his evidence to the committee show starkly how vulnerable children were not looked after properly while in care and that records about them were not looked after, either.Some have argued that the problems that the Shaw report uncovered were put right with the Children (Scotland) Act 1995, but the Kerelaw inquiry showed otherwise. It found many instances of poor record keeping; for example, some records of senior management meetings between Kerelaw and council departments could not be traced, other files were difficult to find and there were problems accessing older electronic records. A proper records management plan would help in avoiding many of those problems. The Looked After Children (Scotland) Regulations 2009 state that authorities must ensure the safe-keeping of case files and say for how long they will be retained, but they do not address wider issues of records management.I am sure that many members of the committee will, like me, have heard harrowing first-hand accounts from constituents who have been in care and whose earlier lives are a worrying blank because the records about that time are disjointed, deficient or have disappeared. The reasons are various, but to put it simply, no one took responsibility for managing the records properly. The moral argument for the bill is powerful, but ultimately the bill is about good governance and improving efficiency across public services. Records are crucial to organisations, particularly in this information age: reliable information depends on good records. At a time when public bodies are looking at ways of increasing efficiency, they need to manage their records and information better than they do now. Some already do it very well, but everyone agrees that there is room for improvement.I know that the committee has heard evidence that our proposals might be disproportionate. I disagree: we have taken a light-touch approach, compared to other countries, and our proposals went through a systematic scrutiny check, as was recommended by the Crerar report. The bill does not prescribe what records are to be created or how long they are to be kept; those are matters for individual authorities and existing regulatory bodies.The bill does not give the keeper any powers to dictate the content of records. Authorities will draft plans setting out how they intend to manage the records that they create, and the keeper’s responsibilities are about approving those plans and helping to ensure that they are implemented. I understand, however, that the language of the bill has given some people the impression that the keeper will assume a prescriptive and directive role. I have therefore asked my officials to look at the bill’s wording with a view to lodging appropriate amendments at stage 2.Some evidence that has been submitted to the committee has pointed to increased costs. Certainly, good record keeping is not without cost, but in the longer term the costs are much lower than they are for poor record keeping or, indeed, for no record keeping. Where authorities already manage records well, there will be minimal costs.The definition of “public records” in the bill is intentionally broad to make it future proof, so that it will catch paper records, electronic records and records that will be created in other future formats, depending on technological change. It covers records of private and voluntary sector organisations, which will be “public records” where they relate to functions that are performed on behalf of a public authority. The only consequence of defining a record as “public” is that it must be covered by a records management plan. Indeed, the definition only has reference to this bill.Importantly, the definition “public” does not make the records public property, publicly accessible or publicly owned. The bill does not create new rights of access to information or compromise confidentiality. Access rights are already dealt with in Scottish and United Kingdom legislation and the bill will not alter those rights or responsibilities in any way.Records that are created by the voluntary sector on behalf of public authorities must be covered because the Shaw report found in such cases that records frequently disappeared when the service ended or the voluntary organisation dissolved. However, the responsibility in the bill is with the public authority: it will not put any direct responsibility on the private sector or voluntary sector.The bill requires the keeper to issue a model records management plan and guidance. He will continue to work closely with authorities and the voluntary sector in drawing those up. Voluntary sector concerns about dealing with different records management systems in different authorities will largely be met through common records management plans and the generic work that is already being done by local authority records managers.Some argue that the proposed scrutiny function and sanctions are contrary to Crerar, but the main focus of the bill is not about scrutiny but about making consistent and durable improvements. To do that, a degree of scrutiny is essential, but that has been kept to a minimum in relation to the records management plan. I reassure the committee that the keeper has neither the intention nor the resources to carry out blanket inspections, but will react to specific problems and assist public authorities in improving their record keeping.Others argue that we can improve public record keeping by voluntary means. I appreciate the good intentions and genuine desire to get records right this time, but I firmly believe that the only way to ensure consistent and lasting improvement is by an act of this Parliament.In legal terms, the bill is extremely tightly drawn and does not cover content or access. A number of matters have been raised by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the voluntary sector dealing with children’s issues. As the process of the bill continues, it is my intention to work closely with both on their separate but sometimes related issues to ensure that when the bill is enacted, issues of content, policy and scrutiny of service delivery remain firmly in the hands of the specialist authorities and agencies.On the narrower scope of the bill on public records management, I will ensure that the keeper works in strong partnership with bodies such as COSLA, and with local government officers, other public authorities and representatives of the voluntary sector to develop and implement guidance and ensure tangible benefits from the legislation. A partnership approach and ethos of joint working underpins that intentTo sum up, the bill cannot put right what went wrong in the past, but it can help us to avoid the same problems in the future. We owe it to former care residents and survivors of abuse—indeed to all future generations in this country—to make the necessary improvements to the way that public authorities deal with records, to safeguard their rights and their identities as individuals and to secure our collective memory.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield)
Lab
Good morning, and welcome to the second meeting in 2011 of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. We have received apologies from Christina ...
Lorna Patterson (In Care Survivors Service Scotland)
The in care survivors service Scotland has worked with about 20 per cent of the client group who have accessed their records; we are talking about more than ...
Tom Shaw (Scottish Government Directorate for Health and Social Care Integration)
I echo what Lorna Patterson has said. Five years ago, I was asked to conduct a review of the legislation and provisions that were designed to protect childre...
The Convener
Lab
What was the most important finding of your research? How will the bill address your findings to ensure that the mistakes that we made for that period in tim...
Tom Shaw
One of the key findings was that it is absolutely essential to listen to people, take them seriously and respect them, and to give them the opportunity to sa...
Lorna Patterson
As Tom suggested, a few key points have come out of our experience of helping people to access records from various organisations. When a person is in their ...
The Convener
Lab
Mr Shaw said that you wanted the bill to ensure that the keeping of records is no longer viewed as a bureaucratic chore. That is a rather interesting perspec...
Lorna Patterson
It is a matter of getting home the point about the impact that records can have. When someone is writing or typing something about an individual, that might ...
Tom Shaw
I can fully relate to that concern. The cultural issue is the big problem—it is difficult for legislation to establish a culture in practice, because that is...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The committee’s focus is on deciding whether we need new legislation. You have both made a powerful case this morning as to why you think we should proceed. ...
Tom Shaw
I can talk about problems that we have faced whenever we have tried to get information about records. Our initial inquiries did not even involve asking for r...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
In your opinion, was the situation unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions that you surveyed?
Tom Shaw
Yes—arrangements were unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I will take up the convener’s point that, although we can have all the legislation in the world, if best practice is not followed, issues can remain. What ne...
Tom Shaw
That goes back to what the record that is being kept is for. What is it designed to do? Is it designed to have just a single purpose—to have something on the...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I say with respect that that is what happened in the past. I am driving at the fact that, in some people’s opinion—perhaps not yours—more recent legislation ...
Tom Shaw
I argue that the bill will close the circle. It will acknowledge and respect the other Government legislation on what goes into records and on access and own...
Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP)
SNP
From hearing your evidence, I suspect that committee members will be of one view—that some pretty terrible failures of record keeping have occurred in the pa...
Tom Shaw
As I understand the terms of the bill and the way in which it will operate, if it is implemented, there will be an opportunity for engagement with the provid...
Lorna Patterson
There is an obligation on organisations to keep records that are useful to them, bearing in mind the fact that a person on whom records are kept may come alo...
Alasdair Allan
SNP
The evidence that we have received has shown more consensus on the need to change the law as it relates to your sector, dealing with vulnerable children or a...
Tom Shaw
I very much appreciate your acknowledgement. I am not an expert in every field of public service delivery. However, I understand the bill to be written in ge...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I want to pursue the issue of record keeping in the third sector and in other organisations whose services are contracted to local authorities. We have talke...
Lorna Patterson
The in-care survivors service Scotland is part of the voluntary sector and we cover the whole of Scotland. I would fully support the view that if future fund...
Claire Baker
Lab
Do you want to comment, Mr Shaw?
Tom Shaw
I echo Lorna Patterson’s comments. I understand that the bill would ultimately lead to a records management planning template with associated guidance and a ...
Lorna Patterson
It is really important to have common principles. For example, when I have approached other voluntary sector organisations, there has been great confusion ab...
Claire Baker
Lab
That is helpful.The other issue that the third sector has raised is the definition of “public record”. In a joint submission, children’s charities argued tha...
Lorna Patterson
This is where things become complex. I agree that it would be difficult, challenging, time consuming and costly for organisations to record absolutely everyt...
Tom Shaw
My perspective is that by defining “public record” broadly, you allow for development of an agreed subset of understandings, guidance, practice and indicator...