Hansard

The Convener (Karen Whitefield) Lab

Good morning, and welcome to the second meeting in 2011 of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. We have received apologies from Christina ...

Lorna Patterson (In Care Survivors Service Scotland)

The in care survivors service Scotland has worked with about 20 per cent of the client group who have accessed their records; we are talking about more than ...

Tom Shaw (Scottish Government Directorate for Health and Social Care Integration)

I echo what Lorna Patterson has said. Five years ago, I was asked to conduct a review of the legislation and provisions that were designed to protect childre...

The Convener Lab

What was the most important finding of your research? How will the bill address your findings to ensure that the mistakes that we made for that period in tim...

Tom Shaw

One of the key findings was that it is absolutely essential to listen to people, take them seriously and respect them, and to give them the opportunity to sa...

Lorna Patterson

As Tom suggested, a few key points have come out of our experience of helping people to access records from various organisations. When a person is in their ...

The Convener Lab

Mr Shaw said that you wanted the bill to ensure that the keeping of records is no longer viewed as a bureaucratic chore. That is a rather interesting perspec...

Lorna Patterson

It is a matter of getting home the point about the impact that records can have. When someone is writing or typing something about an individual, that might ...

Tom Shaw

I can fully relate to that concern. The cultural issue is the big problem—it is difficult for legislation to establish a culture in practice, because that is...

Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con

The committee’s focus is on deciding whether we need new legislation. You have both made a powerful case this morning as to why you think we should proceed. ...

Tom Shaw

I can talk about problems that we have faced whenever we have tried to get information about records. Our initial inquiries did not even involve asking for r...

Elizabeth Smith Con

In your opinion, was the situation unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions that you surveyed?

Tom Shaw

Yes—arrangements were unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions.

Elizabeth Smith Con

I will take up the convener’s point that, although we can have all the legislation in the world, if best practice is not followed, issues can remain. What ne...

Tom Shaw

That goes back to what the record that is being kept is for. What is it designed to do? Is it designed to have just a single purpose—to have something on the...

Elizabeth Smith Con

I say with respect that that is what happened in the past. I am driving at the fact that, in some people’s opinion—perhaps not yours—more recent legislation ...

Tom Shaw

I argue that the bill will close the circle. It will acknowledge and respect the other Government legislation on what goes into records and on access and own...

Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP) SNP

From hearing your evidence, I suspect that committee members will be of one view—that some pretty terrible failures of record keeping have occurred in the pa...

Tom Shaw

As I understand the terms of the bill and the way in which it will operate, if it is implemented, there will be an opportunity for engagement with the provid...

Lorna Patterson

There is an obligation on organisations to keep records that are useful to them, bearing in mind the fact that a person on whom records are kept may come alo...

Alasdair Allan SNP

The evidence that we have received has shown more consensus on the need to change the law as it relates to your sector, dealing with vulnerable children or a...

Tom Shaw

I very much appreciate your acknowledgement. I am not an expert in every field of public service delivery. However, I understand the bill to be written in ge...

Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab

I want to pursue the issue of record keeping in the third sector and in other organisations whose services are contracted to local authorities. We have talke...

Lorna Patterson

The in-care survivors service Scotland is part of the voluntary sector and we cover the whole of Scotland. I would fully support the view that if future fund...

Claire Baker Lab

Do you want to comment, Mr Shaw?

Tom Shaw

I echo Lorna Patterson’s comments. I understand that the bill would ultimately lead to a records management planning template with associated guidance and a ...

Lorna Patterson

It is really important to have common principles. For example, when I have approached other voluntary sector organisations, there has been great confusion ab...

Claire Baker Lab

That is helpful.The other issue that the third sector has raised is the definition of “public record”. In a joint submission, children’s charities argued tha...

Lorna Patterson

This is where things become complex. I agree that it would be difficult, challenging, time consuming and costly for organisations to record absolutely everyt...

Tom Shaw

My perspective is that by defining “public record” broadly, you allow for development of an agreed subset of understandings, guidance, practice and indicator...