Committee
Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee 19 January 2011
19 Jan 2011 · S3 · Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee
Item of business
Public Records (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Tom Shaw (Scottish Government Directorate for Health and Social Care Integration)
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I echo what Lorna Patterson has said. Five years ago, I was asked to conduct a review of the legislation and provisions that were designed to protect children in care from 1950 to 1995. To do that, I felt that I had to look at records and, while it was possible to research the legislation and establish what it was and what its provisions were, we needed evidence of how things had worked in practice. Therefore, we contacted all the local authorities and all the voluntary organisations and institutions in Scotland that had provided residential care over the period concerned. We did that as far as we could, given that there was no central database of all the providers; that was another problem that we faced at that stage.As we made our inquiries, it became clear that there was a good deal of confusion about what records existed, where they were, what they contained and, indeed, how they might be accessed. Although I am concerned not to be insensitive in saying this, in some measure our experience in trying to find the records reflected—I think—something of the experience of the former residents and survivors.There were other issues around those records that we found, because they indicated evidence of poor record keeping. That is not part of the ambit of the bill, but I am confident that the bill’s requirement for the proper management of records and for the planning of that management will contribute to the raising of standards in the keeping of records.One of the biggest problems—Lorna Patterson echoed this—for a former resident or survivor who is looking for their records is being told, “This is all we’ve got.” Very often, when they look at it, they do not know whether, in fact, that is all that exists. Secondly, if that is all there is, is it all that there ever was? Have things been removed, destroyed or lost? That creates a huge problem for individual survivors, who feel very discouraged and disheartened whenever they see incomplete pictures of places that, after all, even given their experiences there, were their homes. Many people who have not been in residential care find it difficult to identify with that problem. We all had a family home, with all that that meant to us. However, for individuals who lived in an institution for 10, 14 or 15 years and sometimes longer, that was where their home was. They look in the records for evidence of the sort of thing that a family would have, such as photographs, letters and correspondence, as well as for the official contents.Our review identified a range of weaknesses, gaps and inconsistencies in records, which it seems to me the Public Records (Scotland) Bill has the potential to bring to an end. Former residents also face the difficulty that, depending on where they lived in Scotland or where they were cared for, different approaches were taken to managing and planning records and, indeed, to what is held in the files. Some people were in care in a range of places; they were not in one place for the whole time. As a result, they get different responses to their requests in different authorities and settings. The bill has the potential to introduce, appropriately, consistency of standards and practice across Scotland, which would be in the interests of future former residents of care, of whatever form that care might be, as well as of those who were in care in the past.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield)
Lab
Good morning, and welcome to the second meeting in 2011 of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. We have received apologies from Christina ...
Lorna Patterson (In Care Survivors Service Scotland)
The in care survivors service Scotland has worked with about 20 per cent of the client group who have accessed their records; we are talking about more than ...
Tom Shaw (Scottish Government Directorate for Health and Social Care Integration)
I echo what Lorna Patterson has said. Five years ago, I was asked to conduct a review of the legislation and provisions that were designed to protect childre...
The Convener
Lab
What was the most important finding of your research? How will the bill address your findings to ensure that the mistakes that we made for that period in tim...
Tom Shaw
One of the key findings was that it is absolutely essential to listen to people, take them seriously and respect them, and to give them the opportunity to sa...
Lorna Patterson
As Tom suggested, a few key points have come out of our experience of helping people to access records from various organisations. When a person is in their ...
The Convener
Lab
Mr Shaw said that you wanted the bill to ensure that the keeping of records is no longer viewed as a bureaucratic chore. That is a rather interesting perspec...
Lorna Patterson
It is a matter of getting home the point about the impact that records can have. When someone is writing or typing something about an individual, that might ...
Tom Shaw
I can fully relate to that concern. The cultural issue is the big problem—it is difficult for legislation to establish a culture in practice, because that is...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The committee’s focus is on deciding whether we need new legislation. You have both made a powerful case this morning as to why you think we should proceed. ...
Tom Shaw
I can talk about problems that we have faced whenever we have tried to get information about records. Our initial inquiries did not even involve asking for r...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
In your opinion, was the situation unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions that you surveyed?
Tom Shaw
Yes—arrangements were unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I will take up the convener’s point that, although we can have all the legislation in the world, if best practice is not followed, issues can remain. What ne...
Tom Shaw
That goes back to what the record that is being kept is for. What is it designed to do? Is it designed to have just a single purpose—to have something on the...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I say with respect that that is what happened in the past. I am driving at the fact that, in some people’s opinion—perhaps not yours—more recent legislation ...
Tom Shaw
I argue that the bill will close the circle. It will acknowledge and respect the other Government legislation on what goes into records and on access and own...
Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP)
SNP
From hearing your evidence, I suspect that committee members will be of one view—that some pretty terrible failures of record keeping have occurred in the pa...
Tom Shaw
As I understand the terms of the bill and the way in which it will operate, if it is implemented, there will be an opportunity for engagement with the provid...
Lorna Patterson
There is an obligation on organisations to keep records that are useful to them, bearing in mind the fact that a person on whom records are kept may come alo...
Alasdair Allan
SNP
The evidence that we have received has shown more consensus on the need to change the law as it relates to your sector, dealing with vulnerable children or a...
Tom Shaw
I very much appreciate your acknowledgement. I am not an expert in every field of public service delivery. However, I understand the bill to be written in ge...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I want to pursue the issue of record keeping in the third sector and in other organisations whose services are contracted to local authorities. We have talke...
Lorna Patterson
The in-care survivors service Scotland is part of the voluntary sector and we cover the whole of Scotland. I would fully support the view that if future fund...
Claire Baker
Lab
Do you want to comment, Mr Shaw?
Tom Shaw
I echo Lorna Patterson’s comments. I understand that the bill would ultimately lead to a records management planning template with associated guidance and a ...
Lorna Patterson
It is really important to have common principles. For example, when I have approached other voluntary sector organisations, there has been great confusion ab...
Claire Baker
Lab
That is helpful.The other issue that the third sector has raised is the definition of “public record”. In a joint submission, children’s charities argued tha...
Lorna Patterson
This is where things become complex. I agree that it would be difficult, challenging, time consuming and costly for organisations to record absolutely everyt...
Tom Shaw
My perspective is that by defining “public record” broadly, you allow for development of an agreed subset of understandings, guidance, practice and indicator...