Committee
Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee 19 January 2011
19 Jan 2011 · S3 · Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee
Item of business
Public Records (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Lorna Patterson (In Care Survivors Service Scotland)
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The in care survivors service Scotland has worked with about 20 per cent of the client group who have accessed their records; we are talking about more than 80 people so far. Of those 80 people, survivors are not looking to access their records from only one place. As you can imagine, some records might be held in social work and there might also be medical records, school records and so on.We believe that the bill is necessary because, in our experience of supporting survivors, records have, in the main, not been available to them. Typically, there will be either no records at all or very limited records, and there might just be a chronology. When survivors access and receive their records, it causes a lot of distress to them if some records are missing or there are no records at all. Survivors may have gone into care when they were very young. They have no idea who their parents are and why they went into care. Generally, they cannot remember, often because of the trauma, what happened to them, how they did at school and what events they participated in. That all forms part of a very important identity for survivors of abuse, so we believe that legislation to improve the way in which records are managed is important to fill in gaps, fill in missing pieces of the jigsaw and give the survivor a sense of who they were as a child.As Tom Shaw has said previously, people often do not access their records until they are in their 30s or 40s. They may have left care at 16 and become homeless, and they may have survived in various different ways. It is not until they become older that they start to wonder about their time in care. They may have memories and they may talk to their peers, who talk about schools that they have been to, whereas survivors do not know what schools they have been to or who people were. The historical side of things, and documenting the story of someone’s life and what happened to them, is therefore fundamental.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Whitefield)
Lab
Good morning, and welcome to the second meeting in 2011 of the Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee. We have received apologies from Christina ...
Lorna Patterson (In Care Survivors Service Scotland)
The in care survivors service Scotland has worked with about 20 per cent of the client group who have accessed their records; we are talking about more than ...
Tom Shaw (Scottish Government Directorate for Health and Social Care Integration)
I echo what Lorna Patterson has said. Five years ago, I was asked to conduct a review of the legislation and provisions that were designed to protect childre...
The Convener
Lab
What was the most important finding of your research? How will the bill address your findings to ensure that the mistakes that we made for that period in tim...
Tom Shaw
One of the key findings was that it is absolutely essential to listen to people, take them seriously and respect them, and to give them the opportunity to sa...
Lorna Patterson
As Tom suggested, a few key points have come out of our experience of helping people to access records from various organisations. When a person is in their ...
The Convener
Lab
Mr Shaw said that you wanted the bill to ensure that the keeping of records is no longer viewed as a bureaucratic chore. That is a rather interesting perspec...
Lorna Patterson
It is a matter of getting home the point about the impact that records can have. When someone is writing or typing something about an individual, that might ...
Tom Shaw
I can fully relate to that concern. The cultural issue is the big problem—it is difficult for legislation to establish a culture in practice, because that is...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The committee’s focus is on deciding whether we need new legislation. You have both made a powerful case this morning as to why you think we should proceed. ...
Tom Shaw
I can talk about problems that we have faced whenever we have tried to get information about records. Our initial inquiries did not even involve asking for r...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
In your opinion, was the situation unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions that you surveyed?
Tom Shaw
Yes—arrangements were unsatisfactory in more than half the institutions.
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I will take up the convener’s point that, although we can have all the legislation in the world, if best practice is not followed, issues can remain. What ne...
Tom Shaw
That goes back to what the record that is being kept is for. What is it designed to do? Is it designed to have just a single purpose—to have something on the...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
I say with respect that that is what happened in the past. I am driving at the fact that, in some people’s opinion—perhaps not yours—more recent legislation ...
Tom Shaw
I argue that the bill will close the circle. It will acknowledge and respect the other Government legislation on what goes into records and on access and own...
Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP)
SNP
From hearing your evidence, I suspect that committee members will be of one view—that some pretty terrible failures of record keeping have occurred in the pa...
Tom Shaw
As I understand the terms of the bill and the way in which it will operate, if it is implemented, there will be an opportunity for engagement with the provid...
Lorna Patterson
There is an obligation on organisations to keep records that are useful to them, bearing in mind the fact that a person on whom records are kept may come alo...
Alasdair Allan
SNP
The evidence that we have received has shown more consensus on the need to change the law as it relates to your sector, dealing with vulnerable children or a...
Tom Shaw
I very much appreciate your acknowledgement. I am not an expert in every field of public service delivery. However, I understand the bill to be written in ge...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I want to pursue the issue of record keeping in the third sector and in other organisations whose services are contracted to local authorities. We have talke...
Lorna Patterson
The in-care survivors service Scotland is part of the voluntary sector and we cover the whole of Scotland. I would fully support the view that if future fund...
Claire Baker
Lab
Do you want to comment, Mr Shaw?
Tom Shaw
I echo Lorna Patterson’s comments. I understand that the bill would ultimately lead to a records management planning template with associated guidance and a ...
Lorna Patterson
It is really important to have common principles. For example, when I have approached other voluntary sector organisations, there has been great confusion ab...
Claire Baker
Lab
That is helpful.The other issue that the third sector has raised is the definition of “public record”. In a joint submission, children’s charities argued tha...
Lorna Patterson
This is where things become complex. I agree that it would be difficult, challenging, time consuming and costly for organisations to record absolutely everyt...
Tom Shaw
My perspective is that by defining “public record” broadly, you allow for development of an agreed subset of understandings, guidance, practice and indicator...