Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 08 December 2010
08 Dec 2010 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Property Factors (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Property Factors (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I thank Patricia Ferguson for introducing the bill, and I thank my fellow committee members, the clerks, and all those who gave evidence to the committee. The bill shows how members of the Scottish Parliament can work in partnership.
The bill’s roots lie with Gordon Jackson in the 2003 to 2007 parliamentary session. It was introduced in the current session by a Labour MSP and it has received strong cross-party support. I and a number of my Scottish National Party colleagues have been strong supporters of the bill and I hope that its general principles will be agreed to at decision time.
As a fellow Glasgow MSP, I have been keen to support the bill. I and Patricia Ferguson have similar constituency concerns and case loads in relation to property factors, and it is only right that Labour and the SNP MSPs work jointly and constructively to assist their constituents in Glasgow and tackle the problems of poorly performing and, at times, downright cowboy factoring services.
I commend the Evening Times and The Herald for bringing the issue into sharp focus. Their evidence is mentioned in the committee’s stage 1 report, as they
“found examples of gross overcharging, allegations of intimidation and threats of bankruptcy for refusal to pay disputed bills”.
Their service is therefore noted this afternoon.
Of course, the problem is not just a Glasgow issue. We have heard from MSPs from different parts of the country. The bill sets out to address a Scotland-wide concern.
I also extend praise to the Scottish Government, which has been working with the property factors stakeholder group to achieve a national voluntary accreditation scheme. I note that work on that has been paused until the outcome of the bill is known. I hope that it will not have to continue at all: I urge the Parliament to support the statutory regulation in the bill. I am sure that the stakeholder group’s work will not go to waste and that the knowledge of voluntary accreditation that was gained from the exercise will be used to inform the standards that are expected, including the code of conduct that will be made by regulation. Much of the spadework has been done.
I favour statutory regulation for a number of reasons. For instance, will rogue factors actually bother to sign up to a voluntary scheme? The committee has already heard of problems in getting property landlords to sign up to a landlord registration scheme. That scheme is compulsory, but because of significant issues in prosecutions only one unregistered landlord has ever been successfully prosecuted.
If we cannot get cowboy landlords to register for a compulsory registration scheme, what chance would we have of getting rogue factors to join a voluntary accreditation scheme? The case has been made for compulsory accreditation and I believe that it would be beneficial to place registration on a statutory footing.
There are issues in the bill, and I hope that the committee, including me, as a member, has been constructive in its scrutiny. For example, there are unclear areas around the £5,000 that an unregistered factor would be fined and the enforcement provisions related to that. We comment on that in the committee report. In the financial memorandum, Patricia Ferguson rightly acknowledges that precise costs cannot currently be quantified, as the scheme will be demand led. That is not a problem, but it is one difficulty in assessing accurately the assumptions in the financial memorandum.
There are three groups of people who use factors. We are here to defend the home owners who have been wronged, given a poor service or exploited by factors. The second group is those who are unable to pay because of financial circumstances and the third group, which we must acknowledge, are the unwilling payers who will use any mechanism presented to them to drag out and resist paying because they just do not want to pay. Whether we go for a home owner housing panel or an ombudsman approach, that group will be a difficulty, and the cost assumptions will become difficult for whichever scheme we go for. It is fair to acknowledge that in today’s debate.
The bill is about driving change forward, and the best way to drive change is to make it easier for people to switch their factors. If the industry knows that people have the opportunity to switch, it will up its game. We have acknowledged in the committee report that it is not easy to switch factors. We should not pretend that those who need to switch factors have the capacity to do it: a lot of vulnerable home owners are too busy making ends meet to worry about switching factor. We must make switching easier.
I will finish by talking about the unintended consequences of deregistration. Paul Martin’s point was well made that we plan for deregistration in other fields such as dentistry—that was the example that was given. The fact that there will be difficulties does not mean that we should not use the power. Indeed, it is essential to have it. However, regardless of how deregistration or other policing mechanisms work, I ask that, if the bill is passed, the next Government conducts an early review to see how it is bedding in. That will be necessary, and amendments may be needed at that stage.
I will support the bill and I pay tribute to Patricia Ferguson for introducing it.
16:43
The bill’s roots lie with Gordon Jackson in the 2003 to 2007 parliamentary session. It was introduced in the current session by a Labour MSP and it has received strong cross-party support. I and a number of my Scottish National Party colleagues have been strong supporters of the bill and I hope that its general principles will be agreed to at decision time.
As a fellow Glasgow MSP, I have been keen to support the bill. I and Patricia Ferguson have similar constituency concerns and case loads in relation to property factors, and it is only right that Labour and the SNP MSPs work jointly and constructively to assist their constituents in Glasgow and tackle the problems of poorly performing and, at times, downright cowboy factoring services.
I commend the Evening Times and The Herald for bringing the issue into sharp focus. Their evidence is mentioned in the committee’s stage 1 report, as they
“found examples of gross overcharging, allegations of intimidation and threats of bankruptcy for refusal to pay disputed bills”.
Their service is therefore noted this afternoon.
Of course, the problem is not just a Glasgow issue. We have heard from MSPs from different parts of the country. The bill sets out to address a Scotland-wide concern.
I also extend praise to the Scottish Government, which has been working with the property factors stakeholder group to achieve a national voluntary accreditation scheme. I note that work on that has been paused until the outcome of the bill is known. I hope that it will not have to continue at all: I urge the Parliament to support the statutory regulation in the bill. I am sure that the stakeholder group’s work will not go to waste and that the knowledge of voluntary accreditation that was gained from the exercise will be used to inform the standards that are expected, including the code of conduct that will be made by regulation. Much of the spadework has been done.
I favour statutory regulation for a number of reasons. For instance, will rogue factors actually bother to sign up to a voluntary scheme? The committee has already heard of problems in getting property landlords to sign up to a landlord registration scheme. That scheme is compulsory, but because of significant issues in prosecutions only one unregistered landlord has ever been successfully prosecuted.
If we cannot get cowboy landlords to register for a compulsory registration scheme, what chance would we have of getting rogue factors to join a voluntary accreditation scheme? The case has been made for compulsory accreditation and I believe that it would be beneficial to place registration on a statutory footing.
There are issues in the bill, and I hope that the committee, including me, as a member, has been constructive in its scrutiny. For example, there are unclear areas around the £5,000 that an unregistered factor would be fined and the enforcement provisions related to that. We comment on that in the committee report. In the financial memorandum, Patricia Ferguson rightly acknowledges that precise costs cannot currently be quantified, as the scheme will be demand led. That is not a problem, but it is one difficulty in assessing accurately the assumptions in the financial memorandum.
There are three groups of people who use factors. We are here to defend the home owners who have been wronged, given a poor service or exploited by factors. The second group is those who are unable to pay because of financial circumstances and the third group, which we must acknowledge, are the unwilling payers who will use any mechanism presented to them to drag out and resist paying because they just do not want to pay. Whether we go for a home owner housing panel or an ombudsman approach, that group will be a difficulty, and the cost assumptions will become difficult for whichever scheme we go for. It is fair to acknowledge that in today’s debate.
The bill is about driving change forward, and the best way to drive change is to make it easier for people to switch their factors. If the industry knows that people have the opportunity to switch, it will up its game. We have acknowledged in the committee report that it is not easy to switch factors. We should not pretend that those who need to switch factors have the capacity to do it: a lot of vulnerable home owners are too busy making ends meet to worry about switching factor. We must make switching easier.
I will finish by talking about the unintended consequences of deregistration. Paul Martin’s point was well made that we plan for deregistration in other fields such as dentistry—that was the example that was given. The fact that there will be difficulties does not mean that we should not use the power. Indeed, it is essential to have it. However, regardless of how deregistration or other policing mechanisms work, I ask that, if the bill is passed, the next Government conducts an early review to see how it is bedding in. That will be necessary, and amendments may be needed at that stage.
I will support the bill and I pay tribute to Patricia Ferguson for introducing it.
16:43
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Alasdair Morgan)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-7531, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, on the Property Factors (Scotland) Bill. Time is fairly tight for...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased that we are debating the Local Government and Communities Committee’s stage 1 report on the Property Factors (Scotland) Bill, and I would like t...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to be taking part in the debate as convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee. We were the lead committee that looked at Patrici...
The Minister for Housing and Communities (Alex Neil)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate the Property Factors (Scotland) Bill, which was introduced to the Parliament by Patricia Ferguson. The Government recogni...
Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, am pleased to take part in the stage 1 debate on the Property Factors (Scotland) Bill. I congratulate Patricia Ferguson on getting the bill to this s...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Con
Like other members, I congratulate Patricia Ferguson, the bill’s sponsor, on her persistence and dedication in bringing this measure to Parliament and, I mig...
Jim Tolson (Dunfermline West) (LD)
LD
The Liberal Democrats welcome the member’s bill that Patricia Ferguson has introduced and offer our congratulations to her. I also congratulate the clerks, w...
Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
I, too, congratulate Patricia Ferguson and thank her for introducing the bill. As one of the original signatories to the bill proposal, I am pleased to speak...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
Like other members, I congratulate Patricia Ferguson on introducing her bill and getting it to stage 1. She should be commended for her hard work and diligen...
Elizabeth Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Stage 1 is an important staging post in assessing the many issues that are the origin of the bill. I pay tribute to Patricia Ferguson for the methodical mann...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
LD
Does Elizabeth Smith accept that clarity on the point that she has just raised might make it easier for some people to accept liability for payments, and not...
Elizabeth Smith
Con
Mr Brown makes a valid point, and I and the Conservative party in general accept it. It is a strong message in the bill.The relationship between the property...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Property Factors (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. I thank Patricia Ferguson for introducing the bill, and I thank my fel...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
Factoring is an enormous issue in the new-build flats in my constituency, albeit not in the traditional tenements, which in Edinburgh have never had factors....
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee West) (SNP)
SNP
I echo others in the chamber in congratulating Patricia Ferguson on the bill, which touches on a subject that is of great concern to many of our constituents...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)
LD
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I praise Patricia Ferguson for introducing the bill and for the manner in which she has done so. Although this debate wil...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
The debate that we have had today and the process that led us to it form a good example of the Parliament at its best. I only wonder why it has taken us so l...
Mary Mulligan
Lab
This has been an excellent debate in which all members have made quite heartfelt pleas for legislation. That is not always the case in this chamber.As Jim To...
Alex Neil
SNP
This debate on the principles of the bill and the issues that are to be addressed at stage 2 has been good and consensual. I congratulate Patricia Ferguson a...
David McLetchie
Con
In relation to those figures—£2,000 a case and 220 cases a year for the private rented housing panel—is the minister convinced that the panel provides value ...
Alex Neil
SNP
The reality is that it is quasi-judicial. As Mr McLetchie will know, anything that is judicial, and particularly anything that involves lawyers, can be extre...
Robert Brown
LD
Will the minister take a further brief intervention on that?
Alex Neil
SNP
Of course, from another lawyer. Are they going to declare an interest, Presiding Officer?
Robert Brown
LD
The issue is about the need to have at the end of the process an enforceable order so that everybody knows where they stand. It is a judicial process and it ...
Alex Neil
SNP
The enforceable order would be the responsibility of other authorities and not necessarily the panel or ombudsman. My point is that there are a great deal of...
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I very much welcome the content and tone of the debate. I will try to respond as best I can to the issues that members have raised. The debate has demonstrat...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
At the recent meeting that I referred to, it seemed that a large number of people were paying 35 per cent commission to factors for their insurance.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I would not dispute that. I have heard a variety of figures mentioned. I have also heard about what, in the trade, are loosely called gentlemen’s agreements,...